community-based, non-corporate, participatory media
community-based, non-corporate, participatory media
police brutality video clips: tasers and dogs used on protestors
by rh/mt
Saturday, Aug. 20, 2005 at 5:01 PM
two video clips from Saturday August 20, 2005. anti-recruiting protest on forbes.
QuickTime movie at 4.7 mebibytes
first clip: a woman is on the ground, restrained by police officers, when a bald police officer arrived and fired a taser into her thigh.
arrested while sitting on sidewalk
by rh/mt
Saturday, Aug. 20, 2005 at 5:01 PM
QuickTime movie at 2.6 mebibytes
a man is sitting on the ground on the sidewalk, in front of the Army Recruiting center. Police approach with aggressive dogs and drag him away, arrested.
bastard
by gingol
Saturday, Aug. 20, 2005 at 10:29 PM
arruinau@tiscali.it cagliari italy
che pezzi di merda bastardi, fuck this man, is dead these police man.
video clips: tasers and dogs
by TFrancell
Saturday, Aug. 20, 2005 at 11:37 PM
tfrancell@aol.com
police brutality video clips: tasers and dogs used on protestors
by rh/mt Saturday, Aug. 20, 2005 at 9:00 PM
Excellent work, someone needs to file assault charges against that Bald Cop with the Tasor, that was completely unnecessary, she was already in the control of the other Cop. If possible, you should try to post a wmv or mpg file, that way everyone could save a local copy. Sites that have video like this tend to get hit by Hackers who will try to delete the videos or just keep taking down the site that it's posted to.
check out the camera man
by daahund
Saturday, Aug. 20, 2005 at 11:50 PM
In the video of the young lady being tasered, notice the two cameramen in the background- one overweight and bald, the other skinny with a blue-striped shirt. These two were involved in the initial incident that sparked the melee. One was "assaulted" and claimed his camera was broken, while the other alerted the police and fingered the "attacker". Looks like all cameras were working just fine to me.
saving local copies
by Daniel P
Sunday, Aug. 21, 2005 at 4:30 AM
dannyp@indypgh.org
You can still save a local copy of these movie files- in most browsers, that's done by right-clicking (Mac: option-click(?)) on the links above and going to "Save As..."
We will be doing all that we can to make sure that the video is still accessible here.
Ohio
by Tees
Sunday, Aug. 21, 2005 at 5:20 AM
Tin soldiers and George Bush coming.
solidariedad
by activisata italianos/as
Sunday, Aug. 21, 2005 at 5:34 AM
maxima solidariedad a los activistas americanos
desde lotro lado del mundo nos otros resistimos como ustedes
adelante adelante para un mundo mejor
Dirty hippy deserved it!!
by Kill the Arabs
Sunday, Aug. 21, 2005 at 5:58 AM
That dirty, drugged up hippy bitch deserved the taser. I laughed my ass off. Fuck you, you goddamn anti-American pieces of shit! Just a matter of time before we purge the country of your traitorous asses.
welcome Soldier!
by BushNoMore
Sunday, Aug. 21, 2005 at 6:08 AM
adkek1212123@yahoo.com
Wow, you must already either have those recruitment papers in hand, or are already in Iraq. OR perhaps you are just from Fox news.
Let us know so we can talk about how brave you are for your words!
Troll alert
by just greg
Sunday, Aug. 21, 2005 at 7:29 AM
just_greg@riseup.net
"Please don't feed the trolls."
Just wanna say that many of us in Ohio are in solidarity with folx in Pittsburg and from wherever ur coming from (NY/NJ etc.), Thanks for your solid showing at such an important event, lets get some discussion going on why anti-recruiting is pivotal to ending the war now, and why discussion is needed to expose the "poverty draft". As a veteran I understand intimately the tactics and techniques recruiters use to net the poorest youth, I certainly fell for the game.
intense
by Adrien
Sunday, Aug. 21, 2005 at 8:04 AM
systemcollapse@gmail.com
i was in pittsburgh for about a month and had to come back to florida a few days before this protest. i want to say good job to everyone. that was a great accomplishment. im sure the cops looked like nice guys to people passing by on the street. those fat fucking idiots are scum.
Solidarity
by Matt (LICMRC)
Sunday, Aug. 21, 2005 at 8:22 AM
standup@wusb.fm
I just woke up this morning to an email with a link for these video clips. The Long Island Counter Military Recruiting Committee is 100% in solidarity with the fellow counter recruiters who marched yesterday, and the 3 counter recruiters who were brutalized by pigs!
I have a radio show "Get Up Stand Up" Sunday nights from 8:30-10PM that you can web stream at http://wusb.fm/website/ . I will definetly play the audio over the airwaves and give a report on the situation. If anyone has anymore information please email me, and go to your local college radio stations.
Peace, Matt
Somethin's happenin' now
by Take back our government
Sunday, Aug. 21, 2005 at 9:35 AM
Has the markings of a pre-planned provocation via Fox News, using an independent cameraman and with someone(s) at the police department knowing about it beforehand.
1) Tries to show the protestors as violent and aggressive. 2) Scares others from attending demonstrations.
Hope people who were arrested and their lawyers can get to the bottom of it. Fortunately there were many witnesses, photos and film.
This is post-Cindy Sheehan vigils. The vessel of national silence and consent is cracking, and force will be used in attempts to keep it from breaking and revealing the lies and hypocrisy to a degree that even the most pigheaded right-wingers won't be able to deny them, at least in public.
The American public is waking up to what the vast majority of the rest of the world public sees clearly. We have lost our government to an oil-profit crazed junta willing to destroy our lives and any obstacles in its path without any scruples whatsoever.
BS
by LJS
Sunday, Aug. 21, 2005 at 12:25 PM
hardtalk@cox.net
The right to assemble does not include the right to cause a public disturbance. Blocking traffic and being a general pain in the ass is going to get you arrested. The problem with you people is that you think this is the 60's, it isn't.
If you continue to spread your leftist bullshit you can expect to get your heads busted.
How can we provide support?
by Pier 57 survivor
Sunday, Aug. 21, 2005 at 12:28 PM
Has the NLG been contacted? Also the people's law collective should be consulted.
Also there is a movement to get tasers banned
http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/05/1736763.php
http://web.amnesty.org/wire/July2005/Tasers
question
by Mork from Ork
Sunday, Aug. 21, 2005 at 2:07 PM
BS, Is your anger a result of your being so darned stupid and unlearned, or is it the other way around?
Why hide?
by speak the truth and it shall set you free
Sunday, Aug. 21, 2005 at 2:16 PM
I have to ask... If you believe so strongly in what you are trying to say then why is it that you feel the need to hide behind a mask? Why must you cover your identity, your face, who you are? You want to express your opinion and voice - which I think everyone is entitled to do. Freedom of speech is something that this country was founded on. I ask, why is it that you feel so strongly in your opinion that you do not reveal your face? What is it that you fear, why do you hide? If you really believe in something then stand up and say it proudly! I would have much more respect for someone who would step up in front of the people and spoke the thoughts inside, than those who act like cowards and hide behind a mask.
How can you say you are trying to protest peacefully walking down the street wearing masks and destroying the property of others. I was there, I saw the crowd and what people were doing. I look at the stories on this site and I see the way the words are twisted. Reality doesn't account for much in some people's eyes, does it?
anybody know of any "defeats" for tazers?
by eff tha poe lease
Sunday, Aug. 21, 2005 at 2:16 PM
perhaps something to turn the tables? Water? There's got to be a way to break the circuit without taking the brunt of the voltage.
it definitely looks like wearing something that the probes can't penetrate would be a good idea. would that have to be very thick?
WTF!
by NooWuh!
Sunday, Aug. 21, 2005 at 3:22 PM
Solidarity ya'll! these clips are outrageous!
Freedom?, ha!
Imperialism sux, its a crime.
To more organizing!
Nice work, police. Amen.
by Colby
Sunday, Aug. 21, 2005 at 4:04 PM
PyroFroggy@gmail.com
Yeah, the police are doing their jobs. If you look in the video, those 'tards were just disturbing the peace and blocking traffic in the street. Trying to block a recruitment office is just retarded.
The chick that got tasered was just giving them a hard time, as you can see in the couple of seconds they probably should have edited out of this to make good propaganda. She was kicking and flopping around and resisting arrest. Maybe if she'd followed orders and/or toned down the protest, she'd feel less like a human lightning rod.
These people need to get a job and get rid of their authority problem and emo complexes.
defeat tazer
by vincent / blast furnace radio
Sunday, Aug. 21, 2005 at 4:09 PM
the only way to beat a tazer is to have a flak jacket / bulletproof vest. and of course that doesn't account for the other exposed parts of the body: head, legs etc.
Mein Gott! You're right
by annodomini
Sunday, Aug. 21, 2005 at 5:01 PM
It's obvious those big, fat police officers HAD to taser that young woman while she was on the ground, flat on her back, subdued; otherwise how could the police have controlled that small, skinny, little woman. I'm sure those two big, fat officers would have been no match for that little woman. Serves her right! How dare she exercise her constitutionally-protected right to protest! Bring back the police state! At least our streets would be quiet.
My offer of alliance with POG
by Christopher Allen Ashley
Sunday, Aug. 21, 2005 at 5:16 PM
januschrist@gmail.com
I'll pledge my support to POG if a lawsuit is filed against the police for excessive force. I've have differences with POG in the past but I'm willing to forget all that and pledge full alliance on the condition that this fight is taken before a judge. Win or lose, I don't care. It's about time we fought the system on its own turf.
Arrested on the Street
by chii
Sunday, Aug. 21, 2005 at 5:36 PM
It looks like the police couldn't make an arrest till they had him off the sidewalk and in the street. Every one of these peaceful dissenters deserve many thanks. They risk injury in the name of protecting the Constitution of the United Stated of American from its domestic threat, the shredding machines in our government and the political shredding machines in DC.
The Pigs Are Baaaack!
by Sam
Sunday, Aug. 21, 2005 at 5:54 PM
yada@yahoo.com
So, the goons and pigs are back. I haven't seen this kind of police brutality against peaceful demonstrators since the Vietnam War protests.
This is just gonna send more people into the streets.
Remember the Constitution?
by sam
Sunday, Aug. 21, 2005 at 6:04 PM
yada@oil.com
You fascist are all alike. Storm Troopers and Brownshirts wielding electric truncheons to remove people whose only crime is observing the right to peaceful assembly under Constitutional rights.
But then again you fascists don't know don't know how to reaad anyway.
He aimed near her genitals
by marco
Sunday, Aug. 21, 2005 at 7:01 PM
He must've been aiming for her genitals.
Sadistic bastard.
Get him fired.
Fined.
Make him pay you monthly for the rest of his life along
with a written apology every month.
Demand a civilian review board for the rest of YOUR life.
We need them desperately.
Without them, we're in grave danger.
We need a master list public domain open source of
every cop who's been fired for violence. Maybe make it parallel to child abuse felons. When one's about to come into your town, everyone's alerted.
Sorry if I sound angry. Do I? This video hurt my feelings.
Brought back way too many memories from DC for me.
Propaganda
by Lie Detector
Sunday, Aug. 21, 2005 at 7:08 PM
Funny how you cut the clip so it starts right when the officer fires the taser, you cannot tell what the woman was doing before it was fired. But then again people like you (Liberals) have a long history of making up and modifing facts.
Also the Consistution gives you the right to Peacefully Assemble. See that is the problem you morons can't keep your baseless protests peaceful. You know you don't have fact to support your side so you work for the shock factor but becomeing violent then blaming the cops when they do thier job and try to maintain order.
very funny
by iggy
Sunday, Aug. 21, 2005 at 9:27 PM
LOL! your remarks are so odious and backward you have to be a joke....
p.s.
by iggy
Sunday, Aug. 21, 2005 at 9:30 PM
sorry, comment was directed toward "kill the arabs" and the other fascist righties...
Cowardly pig!
by Brett Keogh
Sunday, Aug. 21, 2005 at 10:48 PM
The woman was obviously down and no threat to police or anyone. Not that she'd likely been a threat at any point as protesters exercised their lawful right to assemble. I still want to believe that the majority of police are decent and protective people. But, most certainly, there's a large number who are little more than thugs hiding behind a badge that gives them license to bully. Bald Captain Tazer depicted in this video is a poster boy for such a sanctioned thug. He's also an embarassment and shame for the city and state he supposedly works to protect.
Use knife protection Kevlar
by don
Sunday, Aug. 21, 2005 at 11:02 PM
its a real thin tightly woven Kevlar cloth that is used by prison guards to keep knifes and needles from going through their vests.
The Gestapo State
by DaffyD
Sunday, Aug. 21, 2005 at 11:10 PM
signs of the breakdown of society:
1. the free press is muzzled.
2. the "loyal" opposition cedes all power to the police state.
3. lawful protest is outlawed as the gestapo police batter, taser, and arrest all who exercise the rights granted under the constitution.
4. free speech is muzzled.
5. freedom of assembly revoked.
6. criticism of government is treasonous, the penalty is deportation to the gulag.
the tazered woman is an enemy of the state. the video warns those like cindy sheehan who would follow in her path.
Dogs Of War
by DaffyD
Sunday, Aug. 21, 2005 at 11:19 PM
The armed puppets of the police exhault over the power to control lives, to flex their muscles and aim their weapons at the throngs who greatly outnumber the puppets. Arresting a slim defenseless man who represents not bodily harm but an idea of peaceful protest which the more deadly of the two. Ideas are the viruses by which freedom is spread.
Freedom is what they fear for a free society revokes the power from the puppets and judges them evil, emasculating them to the eunuchs hiding behind the badge, taser, billyclub, and gun.
We are waking from our slumber but my fear is that we have slept too long.
A note on tasers
by daahund
Sunday, Aug. 21, 2005 at 11:32 PM
Don't forget that the probe darts don't actually have to come into contact with your skin for the weapon to be effective. The device will create a potential and 'jump the gap' as long as your clothing is less than 2" thick. Also, according to the manufacturer, the M-18 Advanced Taser (which it looks like Pittsburgh police use) delivers an initial shock lasting 5-8 seconds. Additional shocks can be sent by pulling the trigger again. In the video, I counted at least 13 seconds of electricity. That means the asshole fired 2-3 cycles into that poor girl.
Tuff cops
by Urban Guerrilla
Monday, Aug. 22, 2005 at 6:19 AM
That girl was so big and strong, I can see why the fat cop HAD to taser her. His safety was in jeopardy! Man, what a sorry bunch of meatheads if they can't get one scrawny KID under control.
Thank You Dissenters
by Chii
Monday, Aug. 22, 2005 at 7:05 AM
Notice how the fake peace-keepers don't bother the camera men. The fake peace-keepers usually are yelling, "turn off the camera".
Stay cool, calm, and level headed, Peaceful Dissenters. The bastards are hoping for justification for their use of violence against the Protecters of the United States of America's Constitution, The Peaceful Dissenters, You, The Protesters, The Activists.
It looks like the police couldn't make an arrest till they had him off the sidewalk and in the street. It is clear, that the taser was aimed at her genitals. It good that the fake peace-keeper has lousy aim.
Every one of these peaceful dissenters deserve many thanks from every American, even the bush supporter, the sheeple. They risk injury and fatality in the name of protecting the Constitution of the United Stated of America from its domestic threat, the shredding machines in our government and the political shredding machines in DC.
Chii
Counter recruitment rally
by Docibbe
Monday, Aug. 22, 2005 at 7:15 AM
How can the Pittsburgh Police Chief support the actions of his men in this situation? This is nothing less than police gone mad!
Get a LIFE!
by Pittsburgh Citizen
Monday, Aug. 22, 2005 at 7:59 AM
You people truly amaze me and every other law abiding citizen who looks at you and laughs. Freedom of assembly and peaceful protest is one thing. But what has become obvious is that your peaceful protests has been tainted by morons, mostly kids with a poor sense of judgement, who cast a negative shadow on the whole process!
If I were apart of your organization(s), I wouldn't condemn the police who are doing a tough job that few want any part of. I would condemn the mask wearing, trouble makers who could care less about the issues and show up only to ruin peaceful protests just because they can.
Show the world you're a legitamate organization. Failure will only solidify people's belief that you're just a media hungry entity with no real purpose other than to get on camera and you are not to be taken seriously.
legitimate
by nerf
Monday, Aug. 22, 2005 at 9:25 AM
" Show the world you're a legitamate organization. "
well, someone's missing the point...
"legitimate organization." like... the government? the phone company? yes, people love legitimate organizations. they clamor for more.
great video!!!!!!!!!11
by protesterssuck.com
Monday, Aug. 22, 2005 at 10:31 AM
I saw the video on the news Saturday night. I laughed and laughed.............
It was the best damn video I've ever seen!!!!! I taped it and watch it several times an hour. Watching that girl lying on the ground, screaming and squirming, just warms my heart! She got what she deserved. The only thing that would make the video better is if the cop was using a real gun instead of a taser!!!!
Where are the moderators
by Please clear the crap
Monday, Aug. 22, 2005 at 11:04 AM
Some of the above comments should be cleared.
In answer to "speak the truth and it shall set you free" question
The masks are to protect people from any additional police repression. Those who engage in direct action know the importance of this.
Is there protective wear for tasers
by Shocking and Aweful
Monday, Aug. 22, 2005 at 11:11 AM
Is there protective wear against tasers?
Is there any way to ground out a taser once they are fired?
How should medics care for a taser victim?
Important work
by Greg K
Monday, Aug. 22, 2005 at 11:15 AM
The taser video, as well as many of the comments it has provoked on this page, are important, shocking, and incredibly sad records of the widespread masochism that infects our society.
free speech for everyone?
by first amendment phonies
Monday, Aug. 22, 2005 at 11:46 AM
in response to "where are the moderators?"
you want the moderators to clear the "crap"? so much for free speech. your "crap" is TRUTH to the law abiding pittsburghers(who make up 99% of the population). you fringe element phonies are the ones spewing the "crap"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Where are the moderators
by Please clear the crap
Monday, Aug. 22, 2005 at 11:58 AM
Some of the above comments should be cleared.
In answer to "speak the truth and it shall set you free" question
The masks are to protect people from any additional police repression. Those who engage in direct action know the importance of this.
Riot Control Trained Soldiers Perspective
by aeneas_rising
Monday, Aug. 22, 2005 at 12:09 PM
You are right to be critical of this video, but for the wrong part.
The tasing was legitimate. At the beginning of the video (you have to watch the first 1/2 second a few times) the girl slaps away the hand of the cop who is trying to turn her over. This is resisting arrest and (very minor) battary committed against a peace officer.
She isn't restrained, by the way.
She also repeatedly ignores verbal commands to turn over onto her stomach before she is tased.
Where I believe the outrage you are feeling comes from is from a misunderstanding of the ROE/ROF (rules of engagement or force) generally assumed for a taser. It is NOT a replacement for a firearm. It is a non-lethal stage of force that is generally used in place of an officer engaging with his hands or with a nightstick.
Would it have been appropriate for the officer, after giving a verbal command for her to turn over, to have physically forced her to do so by wrestling her over? Absolutely. It is therefore quite reasonable for him to use a taser to accomplish the same thing (reducing the risk to himself by doing so.)
Where the officer did step outside of acceptable behaviour, however, was in lifting the girl by her arms (which were handcuffed behind her) at the end of the video. While a subtle miscue, doing this could have pulled her arms out of socket or caused any number of other injuries. Some places this is consitered misconduct, in others it is simply bad form. Either way the officer could have handled it better.
-Christopher of Aeneadas
Per Ardua ad astra
Where is the problem?
by aeneas_rising
Monday, Aug. 22, 2005 at 12:21 PM
After watching this, I don't see the legal/ethical/moral issue here even if you do take the side of the protester.
The cop does menace him more than was needed with the dog, though it was within the bounds of reasonable force (the dog isn't allowed to attack him and there is resistance elsewhere in the crowd.)
The officer who arrests him does so in a painless and dignified manner. He was arrested for (I assume) trespassing, which he was doing by being on private property (Army Recruiting Offices are rented by the government from private owners usually) after being (presumably) asked to leave.
Note also that the Army personnel inside, abiding by the standard of Possee Noncommunicadus (sp?), are not intervening in a civillian police affair even when it occurs on their doorstep.
Finally, to be fair (after lauding everyone elses behaviour), the protester himself acts quite according to established standards and neither resists nor actively cooperates with the arresting officer.
All around this is a model incident for both police and protesters. Bravo!
That cop is hot
by A oakland chick
Monday, Aug. 22, 2005 at 12:30 PM
I find it hot when a cop takes a terrorist out, that was so hot, he should have kept on pumping the triger, fry the bitch, oh that thought just makes me so horny, fry that hippy, ya ya ya ya, harder.
Leave it to Pittsburghers
by Raoul McWong
Monday, Aug. 22, 2005 at 1:34 PM
s@tt.net
The reason this repression happened is because %99.9
of Pittsburghers have shit for brains...the police too.
Pittsburghers are, hands down, the most thick-headed, pig ignorant fuckers in America. Fat and ugly and stupid!!! All you need to do is read the post before mine to see how totally RETARDED Pittsburghers are.
Indymedia has to make a choice
by Some OS /bin/login
Monday, Aug. 22, 2005 at 1:50 PM
Indymedia -- and the "anti-Globalization" Movement as a whole -- will have to make up their minds about tying their very lives and futures to idealist ideologies which produce ludicrous situations like this: where absolute "freedom" is given to even the enemy to muck up "our" infractructure. At the click of a mouse, even.
I think by now, whether you want to admit it or not, you well-know why *structured* organizations *of necessity* come into existence in class war.
If Indymedia is to even function in future, *it has to take a clear class stance* -- and all these "commentary" by Rightwing turdballs have to be summarily removed, and carefully guarded against. And censored IS the word.
The point is to be as open and free as possible in spite of such unfortunate requirements... And so now you understand _why_ the necessity for a future "dictatorship of the proletariat". Munging up Indymedia is child's-play compared to what they can do, and are certainly planning.
To the Revolution, comrades!
BALD police officer?
by Bald Democrat
Monday, Aug. 22, 2005 at 2:23 PM
Why does the description of the taser video say a "bald" police officer tasered the woman? The video clearly shows that the officer with the taser is bald. There are no long-haired officers with tasers around him that would require the description to explicitly state that he is BALD. Are you anti-bald? Do you think being bald funny and fair game for ridicule? I happen to be bald and find this extremely offensive. Furthermore, I find that bald remark highly hypocritical coming from a group who professes to be progressive. You all disgust me. Hypocrits!
346346
by 346346
Monday, Aug. 22, 2005 at 2:52 PM
Because it was very difficult to tell the cops apart and that cop was one of the few without his hat on and he happened to be bald. It wasn't a bad thing anymore than saying the tall cop.
To clear a couple things up.
by Officer Brasile.
Monday, Aug. 22, 2005 at 3:06 PM
"The cop does menace him more than was needed with the dog, though it was within the bounds of reasonable force (the dog isn't allowed to attack him and there is resistance elsewhere in the crowd.)"
He does menance too much. The thing is he let the dog bite the older women, which is completely unprofessional and should be a mark on his internal file.
"The officer who arrests him does so in a painless and dignified manner. He was arrested for (I assume) trespassing, which he was doing by being on private property (Army Recruiting Offices are rented by the government from private owners usually) after being (presumably) asked to leave."
He was arrested on the sidwealk, did you even watch that video? And he wasn't asked to leave he was ordered to disperse, which he didn't.
"Note also that the Army personnel inside, abiding by the standard of Possee Noncommunicadus (sp?), are not intervening in a civillian police affair even when it occurs on their doorstep."
There were no army personal inside. No one entered that building before the protesters arrived.
Re: Please clear the crap
by MBR-200
Monday, Aug. 22, 2005 at 3:29 PM
You're talking to a wall. Two articles that may interest you:
"Make Media, Make Trouble: What's Wrong (and Right) with IndyMedia" by Jennifer Whitney at http://www.lipmagazine.org/
"The Sad Decline of IndyMedia": http://slash.autonomedia.org/article.pl?sid=02/12/09/1843207
VERY COURAGES OF THEM THOSE KIDS
by pi
Monday, Aug. 22, 2005 at 5:01 PM
I often wonder if some people, such as you, have even a millionth of their couragious patriotism. Oh! I forget, you haven't even bothered to enroll in the military.
hey pittsburg!
by kurtkabang
Monday, Aug. 22, 2005 at 7:09 PM
good job.
now prepare your lawsuits and get ready for a million dollar windfall from the city in 2-4 years, like what happened when the cops in portland got out of control (portland.indymedia.org)
keep suing.
Support from Seattle
by Jahn
Monday, Aug. 22, 2005 at 7:25 PM
jahn_hazardfactory@yahoo.com
I'm almost fucking speechless.
Hazardfactory, political art activists in Seattle, send our love and admiration. Keep up the fight. Maybe one day the police will remember that they have a job because we let them have a job.
Tazer Proof
by Mokojin
Monday, Aug. 22, 2005 at 7:36 PM
Spardaxxx@hotmail.com 9496666666 1234 Donno St
There are several ways to avoid the shock of the tazers, but I would recommend leather. It's cheaper than flak jackets and you can get strips of leather or leather pads to put on your legs. Each officer is trained in the use of this weapon and there are certain zones which are target zones for the zapper.
Another way to counter the zapper, and I haven't tested this myself, would be to wear a leather undervest with metal gilding in it, the metal gilding would be connected (using sodder or just plain uncoated wiring) and connect it in little circles(or ovals). Now when they zap you, your leather vest should protect you from the zapper and the wiring should cause the tazer to feedback, possibly giving the officer a jolt.
You can understand why I haven't been able to test this though. LoL. Ps: Not responsible for ass-kicking from officer after you zap him *lol*
I agree, baldness *is* offensive
by anti-troll
Monday, Aug. 22, 2005 at 8:25 PM
we should respect the bald democrat troll's wishes and eliminate baldness in all its forms. until that time, let us ban baldness and baldees from society as the irritating scourge that they are!
Tasering Legitimate?
by hah
Monday, Aug. 22, 2005 at 8:40 PM
"Would it have been appropriate...to have physically forced her to do so by wrestling her over? Absolutely. It is therefore quite reasonable for him to use a taser to accomplish the same thing (reducing the risk to himself by doing so.)"
Electrocution is punishment. There is no call for punishment in this situation, factoring in her (very minor) resistance. The officers could very easily have restrained her, attached cuffs, and been on their way.
Instead, they resort to physical torture, electrocuting the protestor (it's very very painful, have you ever been electrocuted?) until the protester is "pacified." Is this how you want to be treated, if you ever talk back or offer resistance to an officer? Keep supporting tasering, and the taser will become accepted in society - one day it may replace the billyclub as the tool for physically dealing with the public.
You all are Terrorists
by A democrate
Monday, Aug. 22, 2005 at 9:51 PM
You all are terrorists, and should be treated as enemy combatants and terrorists, and should be executed in the most painful way posable.
Solidarity from St. Petersburg
by St. Pete for Peace and Food Not Bombs
Tuesday, Aug. 23, 2005 at 12:38 AM
SOLIDARITY STATEMENT TO THE PITTSBURGH ORGANIZING GROUP
August 22, 2005
St. Pete for Peace and St. Pete Food Not Bombs stand
in solidarity with the Pittsburgh Organizing Group in
support of members and participants in the Saturday,
August 20 action against the Oakland Military
Recruiting Station.
We condemn the actions of the Pittsburgh Police
Department as yet another example of the use of brute
force and domestic torture to counter non-violent acts
of dissent. It is inconceivable to us that a 17 year
old girl and a 68 year old grandmother, (among others
injured in the police-induced riot), could be
considered such a threat to the State that it feels
justified in physically savaging them. And we have to
wonder what kind of police force would tolerate such
obvious violent and deviant behavior on the part of
its employees.
We call for immediate dismissal of the officers who
used Tasers, dogs and chemical weapons against those
present at the demonstration. A reprimand is not
sufficient…it is clear that these officers will not
benefit from a “time out” suspension or an official
scolding. If they are unable to see that placing an
injured grandmother in a vehicle with no
air-conditioning for 45 minutes is wrong, then no
amount of corrective action will ensure that a repeat
of August 20 will not occur. And while we are certain
that the police department will issue a statement (if
they have not done so already) to attempt to justify
these actions, it is clearly an indefensible position.
The use of Tasers and dogs to attack unarmed civilians
is the hallmark of a fascist dictatorship, not a
healthy democracy. Were intimidation tactics alone
used to stifle dissent, this would have been bad
enough, however the tactics of the Pittsburgh Police
Department went far beyond mere intimidation - opting,
instead, for assault.
We also call for the dismissal of charges against all
arrested as a result of the August 20 demonstration
and an immediate discontinuance of the use of Tasers
and dogs, both at protest events and in other non
life-threatening situations.
We congratulate the Pittsburgh Organizing Group and
participants in the August 20 action for their
courage, their strength and their commitment to peace
and offer our mutual aid and support for their group
as they work to rid their city of state-sponsored
violence and oppression.
In solidarity,
St. Pete for Peace
St. Pete Food Not Bombs
http://www.stpeteforpeace.org
http://www.stpetefnb.org/
Why don't you ...
by Joseph Showalter
Tuesday, Aug. 23, 2005 at 10:27 AM
dreyfus2004@yaoo.com
I would like to see the entire video leading up to the tasing and the arrest of the protester who was sitting in front of the recruiting station. If these people were complying with the requests of police officers and the actions of the officers were unprovoked then there is nothing to hide. If these people were not complying and you do not show the whole tape then you are at fault for misleading at best and out and out lying at worst.
I will check back in 24 hrs. If my request has not been met then I will know the truth.
HELLO MOONBATS!!
by me
Tuesday, Aug. 23, 2005 at 10:57 AM
hillaryisevil@hell.com 555-1212 1234 Any St. USA
When your set goal is "to shut down the Recruiting center" I really don't feel sorry for any of you.
And when you don't follow the directions of the police you get 50K volts of happy juice!
BTW what they did IS against the law.
I'm crossing my fingers they get the full 20 years......
U.S. Code : Title 18 : Section 2388
Whoever, when the United States is at war, willfully causes or attempts to cause insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny, or refusal of duty, in the military or naval forces of the United States, or willfully obstructs the recruiting or enlistment service of the United States, to the injury of the service or the United States, or attempts to do so -
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.
re: Legitimate Organization
by Pittsburgh Citizen
Tuesday, Aug. 23, 2005 at 11:19 AM
You say you're not a legitimate organization. I and all the other law abiding citizens would have to agree.
Mr. Webster tells us the following about the word "legitimate"
"1.Being in compliance with the law; lawful."
Well, it's obvious where you stand on this. Your so called organization was not in compliance with the law, and admitting you're not legitimate only adds to the argument that you serve no purpose other than to be unlawful and couldn't care less about real issues.
"2.Being in accordance with established or accepted patterns and standards."
You're right. Nothing accepted or established here.
"3.Based on logical reasoning."
Not unless it's logical to consistantly turn peaceful demonstrations into riots and then cry foul when laws are enforced by the men and women doing their jobs.
"4.Authentic; genuine."
Right again! The only thing genuine is your disregard for any issue other than your self serving agendas.
Go back to your schools, get your educations and make a REAL difference in the world. And for those of you who are adults, you're misleading these kids. Get on with your lives and make a difference in ways that are effective.
Believe me when I tell you; people are laughing at all of you. You're nothing more than a joke.
Re:re legitamate oranization
by Christopher Allen Ashley
Tuesday, Aug. 23, 2005 at 11:54 AM
januschrist@gmail.com
I agree completely!!
It's obvious that POG is not going to be filing any lawsuits against the police so you all can eat my taint. You are a weak and utterly ineffective group of retards that have no interest in doing anything except dressing like terrorists (list of groups that wear masks at public meetings: KKK, Neo-Nazis, Terrorist Islamic groups, The Black Bloc) and causing petty vandalism. You cry like little bitches when you are held overnight for sissy charges like disorderly conduct, simple assault, and petty vandalism; charges that you have no one to blame for but yourselves.
You KNOW FULL WELL that Pittsbugh Police are agressive sons-of-bitches yet you provoke them and then cry when they kick the shit out of you. That's like poking a hornets' nest with a stick and then crying when you get stung a hundred times.
My uncle was blown to pieces in 'Nam. My late father-in-law was drafted, exposed to Agent Orange, and couldn't watch Forrest Gump because it gave him flashbacks. If anyone wants to see military recruiting slow to a trickle in this country, it's me. Flyers and lawful peaceful protest are enough to cause a headache for military recruiters, stop disrespecting everyone around you by being so stupid.
Re: Taser Protection
by Lima
Tuesday, Aug. 23, 2005 at 12:05 PM
[quote]
There are several ways to avoid the shock of the tazers, but I would recommend leather. It's cheaper than flak jackets and you can get strips of leather or leather pads to put on your legs. Each officer is trained in the use of this weapon and there are certain zones which are target zones for the zapper.
Another way to counter the zapper, and I haven't tested this myself, would be to wear a leather undervest with metal gilding in it, the metal gilding would be connected (using sodder or just plain uncoated wiring) and connect it in little circles(or ovals). Now when they zap you, your leather vest should protect you from the zapper and the wiring should cause the tazer to feedback, possibly giving the officer a jolt.
You can understand why I haven't been able to test this though. LoL. Ps: Not responsible for ass-kicking from officer after you zap him *lol* [/quote]
Mokojin,
I would highly advise people not follow your suggestions. The first suggestion assumes that the leather would prevent the probes from contacting skin would prevent someone from being tased. This is wrong for two reasons: the first - taser charges can jump through clothing and still complete a circut. Even when wearing kevlar or "flak" materials. The second reason is that there are options for firers to work around heavy clothing. Also, the firer does not have to target just the legs to immoblize the target.
The second suggestion is also not advisible - you could be directing a current over a large area of your body, not just in the two prongs. This could result in severe injuries to yourself. The taser is well insulated. No current will reach the officer. Frankly it will not work and is dangerous.
There is also no point in trying to "ground" yourself. There is no way to try and avoid being tased ie falling in a certain way, fighting back, etc- it is just asking for more trouble. If a taser doesn't work the first time, other firers will be on scene. And you will get tased more than once.
There are no known ways to protect against a taser - suggestions or ideas on how to prevent being tased gives one only a false sense of security. If you see officers with tasers and you are not cooperative, prepare to be tased. The firer has to protect himself and those around him first and foremost. It is painful yes, but if it prevents someone getting injured while making an arrest, it is acceptable. In terms of safety, despite all the hooplah from Amnesty, it is safer that a lot of other options out there. Trust me, it beats being pepper sprayed and beaten.
First aid: I would recommend for liablity's sake to see a EMT, especially if the impact was on the head or groin. DO NOT touch wires is still attached to taser. TREAT PROBES AS BIOHAZARD SHARPS. If you have observed anyone having been tased, keep an eye on them - any signs of shortness of breath, pain in the chest and neck and arms and discoloration of the skin should be grounds to seek immediate medical attention (this is very, very rare in post taser events - usually has been linked to drug use).
re: HELLO MOONBATS!!
by moonbat
Tuesday, Aug. 23, 2005 at 12:07 PM
Hello harryisevil,
I didn't realize that the U.S. was legally at war. I mean, it's not like the U.S. followed its own laws and declared war. IANAL, but that looks like it violates a requrement of U.S. Code : Title 18 : Section 2388.
Come to think of it, Pittsburgh Citizen and his trusty policy reference, a dictionary, has a point - since the U.S. government is not "in compliance with the law," the U.S. government is not a legitimate organization.
How to defeat tazers
by Christopher Allen Ashley
Tuesday, Aug. 23, 2005 at 12:46 PM
januschrist@gmail.com
How to defeat tazers:
Find a car or truck battery and charge it up. Get a set of jumper cables and apply them to your genital region several times a day. Not only will you build up a major tolerance to electrocution, you will also be rendered sterile so as to prevent breeding children as stupid as yourself.
Hi moonbat
by Pittsburgh Citizen
Tuesday, Aug. 23, 2005 at 1:44 PM
You have a demented sense of history and government, moonbat. The government is for the people, by the people. Laws are made BY the government, therefore BY the people.
We have laws to protect citizens against many things, including radicals who respect nothing including the laws we the people have put into place through our elected representatives.
So, to say our government is not a legitimate organization is not only a silly statement, it shows the true intent of this "organization". If it's ok to break our laws, cause riotous situations and call it a "protest", then I suppose you're saying it's also acceptable to rob a bank and call it a withdraw.
Taser Video Should Be Widely Shown
by Ralph Dratman
Tuesday, Aug. 23, 2005 at 3:14 PM
rd@newsfare.com
The taser video should be widely viewed. Like the Kent State killings in 1971, the public needs to know what is going on in this country.
I suggest adding in additional video, if available, to show more of the context. Was the protest non-violent? Were the police or anyone else threatened in any way by the woman being held down on the ground?
Some stills of the policeman and the demonstrator might also be helpful. His face should be visible.
Let the right-wingers comment on about how great it is to taser a helpless woman on the ground, and what a great threat she was.
re: How to defeat tazers (ferchrissakes)
by Satan
Tuesday, Aug. 23, 2005 at 3:45 PM
Dear JAnusChrist,
Car and motorcycle batteries have only twelve volts - perhaps you're the one so stupid that you should be sterilised, as you put it.
In reponse to "me"
by The war is illegal
Tuesday, Aug. 23, 2005 at 6:42 PM
The US Code does not over rule the US Constitution. The US constitution, gives congress the power to declare war, not the president. The congress never voted to declare war on Iraq. The president has acted without congressional declaration of war. Under the law technically there is no war, so U.S. Code : Title 18 : Section 2388 does not apply.
But if you want to cite the US Code.
Know that the war is illegal under international law. These are laws which the US is signature to and bound by. This makes the war is a crime and all those in the armed forces war criminals by definition.
So check out the part in the US Army Code about it being the duty of those enlisted in the military not to engage in war crimes and crimes against humanity. The troops are not to obey unlawful orders. They can not use the defense of “we were just following orders” when they commit war crimes. The commander in chief has issued unlawful orders in the invasion and occupation on Iraq. That makes BuSh a war criminal and so are all those under his command
People who support the war on Iraq are supporting a war crime.
Freedom
by ed
Wednesday, Aug. 24, 2005 at 5:11 AM
Freedom. This is what "our boys and girls" are defending in Iraq and Afgahanistan. What lies.
The government of this country (Federal, State, and Local) are the enemies of Freedom. They want total power and control over individuals. They claim our income and, in the case of misguided volunteers, they claim our lives.
The more the unmasking of the intent of the government is exposed, hopefully more people will see the horrible monster that they have allowed to exist and grow.
"Government is force" nothing more. And we the sheeple give up our children to government schools to have thier brains washed, and to inculcate them to believe that government is our protector and friend.
Tell that to George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, et al. They saw the monster for what it is, and tried to devise a form of government that would be limited to protecting property rights. They failed.
Cindy Sheehan is on the correct track - withhold paying income tax to de-legitimize the monster.
It is not about "republicans vs democrats" or " liberals vs conservatives". The true dichotomy is between Statists and Individualists.
Unfortunately, the Statists have the big guns.
The REAL Dangers of Tasers
by Tim S
Wednesday, Aug. 24, 2005 at 7:36 AM
N.M. Officers Suing Taser Firm
The Associated Press
PHOENIX— Police officers in New Mexico and four other states have filed lawsuits against Arizona-based Taser International Inc., claiming they were seriously injured after being shocked with the electronic stun gun during training classes.
All of the lawsuits have been filed in the past two weeks, including four in Maricopa County Superior Court here on behalf of officers in Florida, Kansas, New Mexico and Ohio.
The officers allege they suffered "severe and permanent" injuries, including multiple spinal fractures, burns, a shoulder dislocation and soft-tissue injuries.
The lawsuits challenge Taser's principal safety claim and accuse the company of misleading law enforcement about the extent of potential injuries. They also accuse company officials of concealing reports of injuries to at least a dozen other law enforcement officers.
Taser, based in Scottsdale, has marketed the weapons to 7,000 law enforcement agencies and promoted the gun's safety.
The devices temporarily paralyze people with a 50,000-volt jolt delivered by two barbed darts that can penetrate clothing.
The American Civil Liberties Union reports more than 130 deaths in the United States related to Tasers, while Amnesty International reports more than 120 deaths in the U.S. and Canada— both figures since June 2001.
Taser International has consistently denied that its products are to blame in the deaths, arguing that none have been directly linked to Tasers.
The company also contends Tasers have saved thousands of lives— suspects who might otherwise have been fatally shot by police.
In a statement Friday, Taser vice president Steve Tuttle said the company planned to "aggressively fight" all of the lawsuits.
In their lawsuits, the officers allege they were injured in training classes between August 2003 and October 2004.
They say that Taser instructors did not reveal any medical information suggesting that the guns could cause injuries and they claim the company has ignored important research suggesting the guns could be extremely dangerous, if not fatal.
The REALl Dangers of Tasers
by Tim S
Wednesday, Aug. 24, 2005 at 7:40 AM
N.M. Officers Suing Taser Firm
The Associated Press
PHOENIX— Police officers in New Mexico and four other states have filed lawsuits against Arizona-based Taser International Inc., claiming they were seriously injured after being shocked with the electronic stun gun during training classes.
All of the lawsuits have been filed in the past two weeks, including four in Maricopa County Superior Court here on behalf of officers in Florida, Kansas, New Mexico and Ohio.
The officers allege they suffered "severe and permanent" injuries, including multiple spinal fractures, burns, a shoulder dislocation and soft-tissue injuries.
The lawsuits challenge Taser's principal safety claim and accuse the company of misleading law enforcement about the extent of potential injuries. They also accuse company officials of concealing reports of injuries to at least a dozen other law enforcement officers.
Taser, based in Scottsdale, has marketed the weapons to 7,000 law enforcement agencies and promoted the gun's safety.
The devices temporarily paralyze people with a 50,000-volt jolt delivered by two barbed darts that can penetrate clothing.
The American Civil Liberties Union reports more than 130 deaths in the United States related to Tasers, while Amnesty International reports more than 120 deaths in the U.S. and Canada— both figures since June 2001.
Taser International has consistently denied that its products are to blame in the deaths, arguing that none have been directly linked to Tasers.
The company also contends Tasers have saved thousands of lives— suspects who might otherwise have been fatally shot by police.
In a statement Friday, Taser vice president Steve Tuttle said the company planned to "aggressively fight" all of the lawsuits.
In their lawsuits, the officers allege they were injured in training classes between August 2003 and October 2004.
They say that Taser instructors did not reveal any medical information suggesting that the guns could cause injuries and they claim the company has ignored important research suggesting the guns could be extremely dangerous, if not fatal.
Freedom is right
by Right of Center
Wednesday, Aug. 24, 2005 at 8:26 AM
Indianapolis
'Freedom' is right-- "It is not about republicans vs democrats or liberals vs conservatives." I'm a registered (right-of-center) republican, but George W. doesn't speak for me. Cindy Sheehan speaks for me, and apparently for the majority of Americans if you look at the polls. It's bad enough that the Feds are using our tax money on a public relations campaign to fight the growing resistance to the war. I'm ready to do whatever it takes to shut down the machine.
The use of tasers is despicable!
by Deaniac5
Wednesday, Aug. 24, 2005 at 5:17 PM
The cops should've beat the dopes bloody with their mag-lights.
These Sadistic Fucks Need to Face Justice
by Don DeBar
Thursday, Aug. 25, 2005 at 1:41 AM
dondebar@yahoo.com
The police in Pittsburgh are clearly out of control - not of the fascist interests they serve, but of the people they are supposed to serve.
Pittsburgh progressive need to organize a self-defense committee. You need lawyers, videographers (hats off to these folks, BTW - sitting here in Westchester County, NY, I now know, thanks to you, what sick fucks you have running your police department, and I will share that far and wide) and other press, organizers to disseminate and explain this information to the public, and people willing to confront the police in larger and larger numbers.
real role of police
by bob allen
Thursday, Aug. 25, 2005 at 6:40 AM
rbpeters3@msn.com des moines IA
As we move into the future, more and more people will come to see the real role of the police in society is not to help little old ladies across the street, etc, but to defend the perogatives of capital and property rights. They are traitors to their class-- and as far as the commentors who support the pigs here, well, let them type away. We need to see what and who we are up against, and while peaceful demonstrations are useful, one should never think that the other side won't shoot first. These automatons will do anything to serve their masters.
for the head
by me
Thursday, Aug. 25, 2005 at 7:32 AM
Yes we will always shoot first, I hope they police are good aims, and that they aim for the head.
Taser
by Average Citizen
Thursday, Aug. 25, 2005 at 7:33 AM
It appears that the girl was kicking and struggling with Police. So, which is preferable, a Taser or a Baton? I doubt the police would've used either one if she hadn't been fighting.
Oh My What Large Faith We Have!
by Jon Crosby
Thursday, Aug. 25, 2005 at 9:15 AM
It's hard to say what a peaceful protest would be. Usually what peaceful entails is a protest that doesn’t get any media coverage what so ever. So If in fact the protesters ever intentionally get themselves arrested it is to get the attention of the people that don't really have it in their interest to report a peaceful cause until there is injury to someone. Legitimate means in moron terms that it is a valid reason, Laws do not dictate justice, Laws dictate control and the protection of property, mostly for the sake of those who make the laws. I have been part of a protest where we had a permit and several thousand people walked down the middle of Philadelphia in a peaceful manner everything was done by schedule, the police knew what it was and in plain clothes were supposed to just watch and make sure nothing illegal happened, of course several people got arrested for reasons such as wearing masks. Honestly if you feel that wearing masks is the most evil thing ever well then outlaw Halloween too because masks don't hurt anyone, tasers do dogs do so does pepper spray and honestly I have never seen a cop physically attacked before they felt the need to physically attack a protestor. Maybe its poor training or just lack of control, maybe the protestor really said something the cop didn't agree with. However if you feel that it is LEGIT to beat spray shock and intimidate with dogs if not actually get bit by them so that someone that does nothing to you moves when you yell at them, you are in need of mental assistance and empathy lessons. I realize that the basic struggle in this world is people who comply and people who don't however laws don't work for those who can’t afford lawyers.
Honestly though protests don't work. The truth is the people that are willing to come out to a protest will the next day go back to their job and wont do anything until the next one. Truly if people really believed what they protest there are much better ways to get things done, and you don’t need permits or permissions, you don't ask anyone you do what is right if you truly believe it and if it ends up being wrong then you accept the consequences, responsibility is what raises you above cops above politicians who will not admit any wrong ever. This tiptoe tactic of trying to get the media to notice is a waste of time, if this many people can come together to walk in the street then this many people can individually do a lot more maybe in small groups or whatever. It really bothers me that in this country we are so confused that we don’t follow our guts and instead weave between laws like orange cones worried about consequences. The consequences of laying down and doing nothing are far worse and look where we are now. Honestly look at Ecuador, they got sick of something and they did something about it. I don't understand why we constantly give up our rights little by little to compromise with laws and ideas that already are so far gone that nothing we can really legally do will cause any change whatsoever. Honestly if you want to protect this system you really are not awake and you obviously really don't care and do everyone a favor and admit it. Protests are equivalent to two armies going into a field standing there facing each other except in this case only one side has weapons the other is not allowed to have them. Consider who you are preaching to, the people on your side already agree with you so who are you trying to reach and is this the best way or the most legal way you know of getting nothing to really change.
Oh My
by Reagan Hates You
Thursday, Aug. 25, 2005 at 9:41 AM
I mean really how many people do you need to agree with you before you will take action? Are a thousand people that feel the war is wrong enough to create change, yes of course if they actually do something, instead of agreeing and sitting at home on the couch nodding their head maybe pounding they fist, but then sitting back down and doing nothing about it. Take is as you will, if you don't agree with cops shocking you with Tasers then don't stand in the streets where they can shock you, you getting arrested does nothing because the media will turn it and make you look like the moron, if they even mention you. Cops are people and some of them will sympathize with you but honestly the violence only goes one way and that is down, the cops get beat by the people above them and the cops beat us and that’s the chain of command. Example Cops had a lawsuit against ford because the cars Ford was making for them turned out to explode on a rear impact, instead of admitting they were wrong, ford said that they wouldn’t sell them anymore cars if they didn’t drop the lawsuit and guess what many did because those are the preferred cars and so Ford Beat the Cops and what can cops do about it, can they protest? So you choose what is more important, the chain of violence or change, at what point will the cops drop the riot gear and join you in the chants?
Think Again
by The Right Way
Thursday, Aug. 25, 2005 at 11:45 AM
none
It makes me laugh to read the string of post on this subject. It is so obvious that the small group of you (a couple dozen by all accounts) feel that you somehow represent a larger voice. You are what I like to term in a group think mentality and refuse to believe what you truley are. HYPOCRITES.
How can so called "peaceful protestors" wish harm on the police, on those that hold differing views than their own. Instead you would rather force your views on the world. I believe it is time to grow up, stop hiding behind the mask and face true reality and the role each of you played in this incident. It is called accountability and that is what us in the real world have to deal with each and every day.
Legal War
by Correct Information
Thursday, Aug. 25, 2005 at 12:07 PM
The amount of incorrect facts on here is astonishing. For the record Bill H.J.Res.114 calling for war on Iraq was approved by the house in Oct 2002 by a count of 296-133 and in the senate by 77-23. By the way Senators Reid, Clinton and Kerry all voted for it
re: Legal War
by moonbat
Thursday, Aug. 25, 2005 at 2:54 PM
Ah yes, it is a legal war, my mistake:
(1) SPECIFIC STATUTORY AUTHORIZATION- Consistent with section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress declares that this section is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution.
And now, to rant a lot:
It's all fairly irrelevant, anybody with the power to write something down and enforce it or carry it out can call something "legal." Any authoritarian government, facist or otherwise, usually acts "legally" - the government writes the laws. 1940s Germany and Japan, 1980s USSR, Chile, Noriega, Marcos - all of them acted within the legal framework that they wrote.
The bigger question is more subjective, one of morality, one of perception, and reasonable judgement. It there justification to go to war, kill civilians, kill soldiers, kill our own soldiers, destroy civilian infrastructure? Maybe. In the case of Iraq, probably not.
Is it moral to speed? To park illegally? What are the risks of somebody getting hurt or killed? Tell me you obey the speed limit always.
And perception... You war hawks really amaze me. Would you buy a used car from someone who told you more than one reason why it didn't start sometimes? Where do you get your unquestioning faith in this administration? Please, put your brains back to work. News clips, cool graphics, and carefully orchestrated press information do not count as good information. This administration pays $$$ for advertising firms to plan press coverage, and apparently it works.
While I'm completely ranting, it occurred to me this morning what fucking cowards GWB and his boys are. Sure, go on vacation, do a little work, don't lose any sleep. Said by Brad Pitt of all people: "Imagine a King who fights his own battles, wouldn't tht be a sight."
Naturally, the common people don't want war ... but after all it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.
- Hermann Goering
Really a different topic, but the resolution is an interesting read, justification for the war includes things like Iraq's WMD capacity and involvement in terrorism and 9/11.
more ranting
by moonbat
Thursday, Aug. 25, 2005 at 3:27 PM
So sorry for the rambling, rather off-topic.
The recruitment center is fair game, its purpose is to collect cannon fodder. Yes, millitary service can provide discipline, training, self confidence. Unfortunately, it also puts the soldier in the hands of, in the present case, an egomaniac who doesn't value your life all that much.
The center really has to almost trick recruits into signing up. Trick them into risking their lives, for what? Does the war in Iraq make us safer? Make the world safer? Keep gas prices lower? What are the benefits of this war? Revenge? Distraction? Profits?
So the center supports inadequately justified killing. The center acts immorally, so it is a target of moral outrage.
Sometimes morals are encoded in to law, sometimes not. And it matters whose morals get turned in to law, and whether or not those morals really reflect those of the population, or those of the few who make the laws, or more likely, whether or not the laws just benefit those making the laws, morals aside.
Dear Satan
by Janus Christ Ashley
Thursday, Aug. 25, 2005 at 3:36 PM
By all means, prove me wrong. I dare your stupid ass. Take a car battery and shock yourself with jumper cables.
Let me repeat myself
by Anus Christ Killing Commie scum
Thursday, Aug. 25, 2005 at 3:43 PM
LIST OF GROUPS THAT WHERE MASKS AT PUBLIC GATHERINGS:
KKK
Neo-Nazis
Terrorist Islamic groups
The Black Bloc
PS
by Tazer your own dick
Thursday, Aug. 25, 2005 at 3:46 PM
I meant to say "Wear" not "where". Im sory. I wint to a socalist pubic skool.
houston solidarity
by shdowlkr
Friday, Aug. 26, 2005 at 10:56 AM
I was one of the arrestees during m18 here in houston. My heart screams out to you all. My tears will not soften the pain of their blows niether will my declaration of injustice prevent it from ever happening again. But that is why we are who we are... activists. We take an active part in our world to improve it. We are always the underdogs barely able to stand but yet we who are so few effect so much. Stay strong!
peace
shdowlkr
WIMPS
by Protest Veeran
Friday, Aug. 26, 2005 at 12:40 PM
I can not Fn believe the whining from you pussies. If you are going to start a protest and take on the police, then don't cry like pussies when you get the confrontation you were looking for. In my day, this was what we wanted and what we got. And we took it to them and wore it proud when we took it on the chin. 50,000 volts? you say that like it means something. Pussy. Besides, it's the Amps, not the volts. that will kill you.
This is not the time to be mean
by Josie P
Saturday, Aug. 27, 2005 at 11:04 AM
petunia511@excite.com
What good does it do to critisize, instead, if your an old pro-why not give out some good pointers for future use.
nice!
by joran
Saturday, Aug. 27, 2005 at 5:53 PM
It's quite amusing! It may sound sick, but I actually enjoyed watching the video over and over!
Post more of those videos!!
You people disgust me.
by SGT P
Sunday, Aug. 28, 2005 at 7:48 PM
rhr_1000@hotmail.com Pittsburgh, PA
Ok let me ask you this. Give me ONE reason to protest the US Army. Give me one. Does the Army make its own decisions about who to fight and when? No. The Army is commanded by a civilian, namely the president. We follow orders that we are given. Period. We do what we are told. We fight where we are told. This isn't out choice. As an Iraqi Freedom veteran, I find this behavior both distasteful and troublesome. If you do not agree with the war that we are fighting that is your right as an American. The person to have an issue with is the president, not the local Army recruiter station. You god damn bastards! It is the Army and all the other members of the armed forces that gave you stinking losers the right to free speech and to assembly! We are the reason that you are speaking English and not German or Japaneese! We have sacrificed everything while you have given nothing. To quote Jack..."I would rather you just said 'thank you' and went on your way." How dare you! If you don't approve of the policies of the president then get out and vote! How many of you whiners voted in the last presidental campaign? Perhaps if more of you whiners did then your man Kerry might have won....too bad! Show some respect for those who have given all for their country, and for those who serve today.
Bill of Rights
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Peaceably assemble does not include being a hinderance to people walking by nor does it include blocking traffic. In order to "assemble peacefully" in this municipality a permit must be obtained. You cannot plop your ass down on private property and have your little protest. There are limits as to what you can do. Those people were most likely arrested for criminal tresspass, criminal mischief, and resisting arrest. Had they LEGALLY obtained a permit to assemble none of this would have occured. But I guess protesters don't have to follow the law huh? And as far as "police brutality" goes, getting tasered by a cop is not brutality. Getting your head caved in like Rodney King is. Like it or not, if you choose to not follow a legal order from a police officer, you can be subject to non-lethal attack. These measures are designed to make the subject cooperate with the police. They are not designed to cause permenent harm like oh, say the rounds from an AK-47 shot at you. If you resist arrest, this is what you can expect. It may have been a little on the extreme. I will concede that. it is not brutality.
As far as calling the Army and the police fascists, do you even know what the definition of fascism is? The term fascism has come to mean any system of government resembling Mussolini's, that in various combinations:
1)exalts the nation and party above the individual, with the state apparatus being supreme.
2)stresses loyalty to a single leader, and submission to a single culture.
3)engages in economic totalitarianism through the creation of a Corporatist State, where the divergent economic and social interests of different races and classes are combined with the interests of the State.
So tell me, how are the Army and the Police fascists? I don't see it. You like to call people who's political views are conservative and therefore different from yours fascists because most people connect that term with the Nazi party and all of the atrocities associated with said party. This is merely an attempt to "sling mud". How pathetic. You don't even know the true definition of the word. Saddam Hussein was a fascist. The city police and US Army soldiers are not.
re: You people discust me
by Janus Christ
Sunday, Aug. 28, 2005 at 9:00 PM
While I don't agree completely with what you have brought up, you raise alot of valid points.
My only counterpoints are:
1) The recent protests are not so much about the president or even the Iraq war as they are about lies and disinformation spread by armed forces recruiters. I understand that you are a willing participant in the US Army, that you have a job to do, and that like all jobs sometimes we have orders that we don't agree with but have to carry out. I realize that armed forces service is not compulsory in the US, but people have a right to present why they feel joining might be wrong.
2) I understand that tazers are classified as "less than lethal" disorderly control devices (read: "USUALLY not lethal" Hit Google up for stories on death and serious injury from tazer use) and that at least to some degree the girl that was tazered "had what was coming to her" in that she was resisting arrest. However, I find it rather excessive that something like that would be used on someone of such a small stature. I don't believe for a second that a 200+ pound officer would not being able to restrain an unarmed civilian of that size without crowd control devices.
3) I noticed your references to WW2 and that we would "all be speaking Japanese or German without the the US armed forces". It should be noted that up until Pearl Harbor the majority of Americans held an isolationist stance on foreign involvment. An interesting similarity between the Left and isolationist idealists like Pat Buchanan (and what used to be a key Republican ideal) is their opposition to foreign involment like the Iraq war.
My biggest issues with Iraq are not the soldiers being killed and wounded, as you've implied it's part of your job, but that:
1) The war was started unprovoked and under false and half-true pretenses. There where no WMDs, Saddams military was probably at its weakest when the US invaded, and aside from meeting once or twice, there was no alliance between Saddam and Osama bin Laden.
2) Those that benifit from the spoils of this war are not the average US citizen (see gas prices drop lately? They seem to be getting HIGHER.) but major corporations like Halliburton and the oil industry.
3) It is not right for the US to meddle in the affairs of other nations (again this used to be a REPUBLICAN ideal). It is not the responsibility of the US to police the world, it is the responsibility of the citizens of dictatorships to rise up on there own in revolt.
4) Concentrating the military on such a huge permanent project leaves us vulnerable in case future military issues rear their ugly head (ie: China, North Korea, Russia.) This is with the hypothetical assumption that these nations would be direct aggressors against the US. This even stretches us thin for minor (but important and humanitarian) military operations like the Darfur region of Sudan. Maybe that sounds contradictory to my last point but I don't think it's so bad to spend a few million dollars (as opposed to BILLIONS for Iraq) just so people in Darfur can eat.
"The issue today is the same as it has been throughout all history, whether man shall be allowed to govern himself or be ruled by a small elite."
-- Thomas Jefferson
Quite humorous really
by Master P
Sunday, Aug. 28, 2005 at 9:43 PM
rhr_1000@hotmail.com
This is quite funny really. All of you "liberals" or whatever you call yourselves are quite fond of throwing around terms like "fascist", "gestapo", and "gulag" as in this perticular entry:
The Gestapo State
by DaffyD Monday, Aug. 22, 2005 at 3:10 AM
signs of the breakdown of society:
1. the free press is muzzled.
2. the "loyal" opposition cedes all power to the police state.
3. lawful protest is outlawed as the gestapo police batter, taser, and arrest all who exercise the rights granted under the constitution.
4. free speech is muzzled.
5. freedom of assembly revoked.
6. criticism of government is treasonous, the penalty is deportation to the gulag.
the tazered woman is an enemy of the state. the video warns those like cindy sheehan who would follow in her path.
I challenge ANY of you to quantify just ONE of these statements. Just ONE of them. Do you people have ANY IDEA AT ALL what the Gestapo was really like? How about what a Gulag was really like? To compare the Pittsburgh police to the Gestapo is to compare the Salvation Army to the US Army. They are nothing alike except in name. You throw these words around because the average person doesn't really have a clue as to their true nature; the average person only recognizes that they are "bad things". You try to associate things that you don't like with things that carry a very palatable negative connotation (i.e. guilty by association). Even though the person or thing in question is really nothing like the adjective you are using to describe it you still use it in an attempt to have the adjective's negative connotation "rub off" on the person or thing in question. You throw these words around without a true understanding of their very nature. If the posting that I commented was but an isolated case I would hardly care, but I am seeing more than the one case. Do you really and honestly thing that the police are "gestapo like"? Please.
Like I said just PROVE ONE ITEM FROM THE QUOTED COMMENT. Show me how you are correct, rather than just spewing liberal, peacenick propaganda.
I am not american
by not fucking bastard
Monday, Aug. 29, 2005 at 9:27 AM
"The amount of incorrect facts on here is astonishing. For the record Bill H.J.Res.114 calling for war on Iraq was approved by the house in Oct 2002 by a count of 296-133 and in the senate by 77-23. By the way Senators Reid, Clinton and Kerry all voted for it."
That prove only at you must not be surprise if your police forces are against you. Your army have allready concentration camps all around the world (Gantanamo is just one, you are occupying more as 100 countries with your military bases.).
That's funny the american dream: Now it is american against american... Maybe the rest of the world have a chance to live in peace after all!
Soldiers Aren't the Problem
by UnionMaid
Monday, Aug. 29, 2005 at 11:41 AM
Don't assume that violent hate-mongers like "Kill the Arabs" are soldiers. I started protesting war with Vietnam Veterans Against the War. The combat veterans I've known understand that war is hell and are more likely to work against it than incite it. Most hateful venters like "Kill" are just wannabes who would get a whole new perspective if they ever had to endure the particular hell of combat.
I have perspective
by Combat Veteran For Service
Monday, Aug. 29, 2005 at 4:10 PM
Hey ass, just because you have been to war does not give you any greater moral authority to protest it or to support military action. I am a combat veteran and one of the reason I served in the military was to ensure the rights of everyone (including your lazy coddled vagrant America Hating Terrorist supporting ass) to have an opinion of equal weight with each other person. However, I have far more persepctive than you to understand that this military action is entirely justified and necessary. Our soldiers are doing an excellent and honorable job in the field. All you are doing with your BS and trying to interupt recruitment is showing your total disrespect for the military and those that serve. Maybe if you enlisted you would then have the added value in your opinion to criticiz ;)
funny
by dave
Monday, Aug. 29, 2005 at 7:46 PM
lol.. retards, get out of the way next time.
STOP THEM BEFORE THEY RECRUIT AGAIN
by AMERICAHATERTERRORISTSUPPORTERTHANKYOUMAM
Monday, Aug. 29, 2005 at 8:53 PM
Stop the military recruits, because we sure as hell do not want anyone going into the worthless military service. If you need any proof about just how horrible these military types are see the evidential photos below.
Nigs
by NiggerHater
Monday, Aug. 29, 2005 at 9:17 PM
FUCKING NIGGERS. STRING THAT NIGGER CUNT UP BY THE FUCKIN BALLS, YOU CUNT FUCKING CUNTLICKING CUNTS.
"NiggerHater"
by just wondering
Tuesday, Aug. 30, 2005 at 7:30 AM
Why is this crap on Indymedia?
What's the saying?
by Spanky
Tuesday, Aug. 30, 2005 at 7:35 AM
I think the large man said to stop, drop, and roll - it took you a little time, but soon you came around! Funny stuff, sent it to many college pals.
protesters exaggerate police actions
by ihateanarchists!
Tuesday, Aug. 30, 2005 at 7:36 AM
Are cops wild in the streets? New study says no way!
To hear some of the media and activist police critics tell it, American cops are "out of control," running rampant in an "epidemic" of unjustified use of force.
But in an ongoing study that has been underway now for more than three years, Dr. Darrell Ross, an associate professor in the CJ department at East Carolina University, is nailing down facts that prove just the opposite is true.
In reality, Ross insists, officers' use of force is miniscule in the totality of police-citizen contacts. Force incidents -both lethal and nonlethal - actually are down by significant percentages in recent years. And the oft-repeated accusation that police deliberately and discriminatorily target racial minorities in employing force is not substantiated when important contextual information is taken into account.
Why does the myth of extensive and excessive use of force persist? Partly, Ross suggests, because certain powerful political agendas and philosophical orientations depend on it. Partly because important, relevant social forces are not properly understood or reported. And partly because of the nature of modern media.
"People try to show a trend by taking one incident and magnifying it," Ross told Force Science News, and the practice of tv shows infinitely replaying videotape "loops" of isolated police violence makes the atmosphere on the street "look worse than it is, like the police profession is in a conspiracy to beat people up.
"This is not to say we have never had officers who cross the line of brutality. We've had countless examples, just as other professions have their unethical members. But not at the level that the myth says. The truth is that police use of force, including deadly force, is less than it used to be by far."
As a law enforcement trainer, CJ educator and expert witness with more than 20 years' experience, Ross had grown wearily familiar with the accusatory broadsides leveled at American policing regarding use of force. At the latest ASLET training conference, he itemized a laundry list of these allegations, including claims that "police brutality is systematic," that police "use more force than necessary," that police "discriminately use excessive force against minority groups," that police willfully and regularly "violate citizens' 4th Amendment rights" and so on.
What finally motivated Ross to launch his study was the book "Police Brutality," an anthology of essays edited by journalist Jill Nelson about the "crisis" of police "misconduct," the "persecution" and "murder" of blacks by officers, and the disreputable behavior of "the fuzz" on the "battlefront" of the streets. The tenor of this material, coupled with "police brutality" reports by activist groups like Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, seemed so vastly "ill-informed and ill-conceived" compared to Ross' personal experiences that he determined to discover and document the truth.
To date, he has compiled and analyzed an extensive amount of pertinent data, including more than 220 lethal force and 60 less-than-lethal force studies, innumerable articles and reports, 35 years' worth of government crime-trend statistics, 26 years of officer-fel
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