community-based, non-corporate, participatory media
community-based, non-corporate, participatory media
Another POG CR action [audio interview]
by david
Saturday, May. 28, 2005 at 1:52 PM
Fifteen activists returned to Oaklands' military recruitment station for the third in POG's series of counter-recruitment actions.
Interview
by david
Saturday, May. 28, 2005 at 1:52 PM
audio link: 
MP3 at 1.5 mebibytes
MP3 at 1.5 mebibytes
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An interview with a POG member about military recruitment and POG counter-recruitment. 6:16, mp3.
why the hell don't u tell people about this?
by .....
Sunday, May. 29, 2005 at 1:43 PM
ok now i'm annoyed. is it your goal to only have 20 or less people at these events against recruitment? Because it sure as hell seems like it. I stay pretty damn involved and i have no damn clue when this stuff is goin down. Do some PR for Christ's sake
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by ---
Monday, May. 30, 2005 at 10:29 AM
the goal of these has been to be non-announced. no general publicity has been done for them, for good reason.
larger, public, actions are in the works. if you're interested in getting involved with pogs work you should contact them.
i have done this
by .....
Monday, May. 30, 2005 at 6:47 PM
i contact POG over and over via phone calls at the Merton Center and e-mails to the pog address and i also am on the mailing list. Still no word on these events. While keeping them out of large public view may be good for what you want to do, which is cool, i think its dumb to leave out potential help in attendance and work towards the goals desired through this campaign. I always wish POG the best, but i don't get what has been going on lately. Hope things can get cleared up for myself and anyone else with these concerns.
no title
by no author
Tuesday, May. 31, 2005 at 8:42 AM
I'd guess that what's going on is the typical pog internal politics and power structure.
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by ---
Tuesday, May. 31, 2005 at 10:14 AM
In reply to the original querry I don't know the answer. Maybe there was miscommunication, maybe you got left out of the loop deliberately or by accident, maybe someone was supposed to contact you but dropped the ball, maybe you're a rightwinger trying to sow disunity, maybe people contacted you at the wrong email. Who knows. Best solutuion would be to talk to people in person and work things out that way. Questions about actions not publicly announced or publicized don't tend to get resolved on public message boards.
In regards to the no author, no name comment. Might be true, might not. Comments by people with no name on right-wing infested message boards are not going to help in anyway though.
Best thing to do is always to lead by example. You think another group isn't doing things right then getting it popping yourself. This city is big enough for a lot of groups to be working on counter-recruitment actions.
Groups being forced to "compete" in the marketplace of good organizing is the surest way to make sure everyone is using the best processes they can.
well....
by author
Tuesday, May. 31, 2005 at 7:57 PM
well first i am not a right-winger i assure you of that. Second, anonymity is used here to avoid any personal conflict or problems because unity is what we need, and third, i posted on here as a way of publicly airing this and seeing how many others reading may have the same feelings in regards to how counter-recruitment campaigns are being done. This way, the grievances can simply be aired publicly and addressed this way as well. Sadly, while 90% of POG are really great people that want to build a movement, 10% seem to be rather elitist and hypocritical, thinking for some reason being "fringe" is cool. I just want to hear from all the good POG folk here publicly on how to resolve the issue brought here, without allowing the very small minority elitist element to make this personal or unnecessarily complicated.
oh yea and...
by and
Tuesday, May. 31, 2005 at 8:01 PM
and i don't want to split away and do things myself here. Good organizing is largely done by TMC and POG, so i like to keep a united front working here. I also don't think everyone splitting off the second something goes wrong will help things here. We don't need things breakin into groups competing. That is what the Feds did in the 60s to SDS and the Black Panthers and it destroyed those groups. So hopefully one of our awesome POG members can throw something general out here to address this for all those interested and things will be cool again
CR
by pogger
Tuesday, May. 31, 2005 at 9:17 PM
The recent counter-recruitment efforts by POG have been kept on the down-low because we believed it would increase the effectiveness of the actions. I can assure you no one was meant to be excluded by POG, and we encourage you to get involved. Send an email to pog@mutualaid.org if you want to get involved and I'm sure someone will get back to you. We will be having more open publically announced CR events in the future.
Un-Announced events
by another Pogger
Wednesday, Jun. 01, 2005 at 10:51 AM
Just want to reiterate what another Pogger said. the only reason these were un-announced is so that we could get to the Recruiting stations and shut them down before cops show up. If we announced it, the cops would get there first and it would be us vs. them which, while often pretty fun, is not the point of these actions. The point of these is to at least briefly shut down recruitment at these locations. So, while we talk about and discuss these events at POG meetings, we don't post them on lists or publically announce them. So yeah, having unnanounced events is just pragmatic for the goals of these events, nothing more than that.
But we will be having more and larger and announced and public events in the next few months. This is an ongoing campaign and will feature all types of tactics. Does that help at all?
helps and ....
by and
Wednesday, Jun. 01, 2005 at 7:51 PM
yes these answers help to a point but i have already been e-mailing and am on the POG mailing list. My grievance to begin with was just that i am on these lists and stay in touch. That is why i figured i should have been told since i am on the list already. Your point are noted though and they are good ones. I understand keeping these actions quieter and am for it. I just meant that you should just have some sorta way those of us who have long been involved and in touch with you can know of these things.
Thanks again for answering these concerns
solution
by yet another pogger
Thursday, Jun. 02, 2005 at 6:48 AM
If you have been involved in things and people know you it would be very easy to contact pog and attend a meeting.
Problem solved
Then these things won't have to be hashed out on the imc comments section.
Thanks - take care
POG ED
by [[00]]
Thursday, Jun. 02, 2005 at 6:56 AM
POG has no interest in broadening its participation to more than the few, the proud, the insecure. The politics and power struggles at POG rival the corruption of the Boosh Administration that POG is suppposed to be fighting. These protests are "organized" for a few people to go out and feel like they are accomplishing something, sticking it to "the Man", so they can come back and tell the rest of us how they are better activists. They come back to IMC and start slapping themselves on the back with exuberant congratulations on their success in leading the groundswell against whatever.
No, this is a common problem here in Pittsburgh. A fractured, Balkanized resistance, with weak lines of communication, egos, and fiefdoms. POG, TMC, IMC, and the many lesser groups that are not working for Unity, just control and self aggrandizement. Sure there will be the major rallies over a focal event such as Boosh coming to town, the anniversary of the start of the Boosh war crimes, or the like. But even there there is little true cooperation and cross-organization.
I like reading about these events as much as the next person. But I would prefer to know that these are going to take place. I could have been to this action and would have liked to be there. But the organizing effort is more like last-minute party planning than organizing a political movement.
Are you really so (self)important that you can not do any advance publication for fear that the ubiquitous right-wing jack-asses will show up or start heckling you. PPPUUHHLLEEZE. They are still going to show up here and write there ignorant dribble, but they are not going to go to a rally that will require them to leave the daily Rush Limbaugh broadcast. Besides, are we so fragile, our message so weak, that we need to be concerned about this.
Pittsburgh needs a profesional organizing effort if we are ever going to be effective. The matriarchs and patriarchs of the activist fiefdoms need to start working for a more inclusive and broad based participatory protest scene.
ttt
by ttt
Thursday, Jun. 02, 2005 at 9:31 AM
then lead us by example oh great one with the answers. show pog and tmc and imc how much better everything could be done.
this thread is pointless.
the reasons why these weren't public actions have already been explained. I agree that it would be awesome if there was more recruitment organizing going on. more public and non-public events that happen the better. instead of complaining you wanted to go to this action, but couldn't why not have your own publicly announced action.
organize, organize, organize.
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by ---
Thursday, Jun. 02, 2005 at 9:52 AM
Thanks so much to the complaining asshole 2 comments above. One "front" is exactly what Pittsburgh doesn't need. Let me guess, you're a state socialist perchance? Complaining people aren't taking the grand revolution you envision seriously enough?
Sorry. Pittsburghs doing great and these comments aren't going to dissaude people from getting involved.
Your welcome
by [[00]]
Thursday, Jun. 02, 2005 at 2:03 PM
and thank you to the complaining asshole immediately above. You are definitely part of the problem, not the solution. The second anyone criticizes POG or TMC or IMC, then you all start in on the person who made the comment with insults, attacks and more of the rationalizations that are demonstrative of the organizational failures and weaknesses in Pitsburgh. Why would anyone with diferent ideas on organizing want to get more involved if they are going to be met with your anger and egotism. That creates a very exclusionary environment.
Contrary to your myopic assertions, Pittsburgh is not doing well. We are a fractured protest community. No, I am not a state socialist. I just wish that we had better and open communication among the various diverse activist groups here in Pittsburgh. We do not. Even though we have many groups, there is always interest among disparate groups to show support for the causes of common interest. Better communication, more oppenness and an interest in a truly inclusive non-threatening protest culture would go a long way to improving the community and advancing the message.
Instead of getting your back up and bristling because your ego has been bruised, why don't you listen and try to improve your efforts.
pgh
by pogger
Friday, Jun. 03, 2005 at 9:31 AM
I believe Pittsburgh has a very closely-knit activist community, and I'm proud of it. Look at all of the major national events where Pittsburgh organized scores of people to go. Look at all of the campaigns with numerous groups involved in organizing and support. Just because you don't agree with a group does doesn't mean you should insult it on Indymedia. Take it up with a member in person instead of throwing a fit in public.
Again...
by [[00]]
Saturday, Jun. 04, 2005 at 4:02 AM
Just because you don't agre with someone (me) you should not go about insulting that person on IMC. Of course, this is a pattern - we are permitted to discuss whatever we want on IMC unless we are raising questions that some hallowed group does not like. And there in lies the problem. It is worse if you try to mention it to one of the anointed in person. For then they start with the public insults and anger. It is very exclusionary. Your refusal to undertake some constructive critical self-evaluation of these organizations has hobbled them and the activist commmunity.
a couple comments on issues involved.
by .
Sunday, Jun. 05, 2005 at 8:18 PM
indymedia is a good place to showcase local activism. it's not a good forum for hashing out interpersonal issues. the person who continues to raise concerns and the 4 or so people who are responding will never reach an understanding in this medium. the limitations of anonymous communication in front of a large audience are too great. the person critiquing doesn't feel comfortable stating who they are or what group they are from. that's reasonible, but greatly decreases the chance of any constrictuve dialgue. if anyone knew who the person is they'd obviously try to dialogue in person. no one even knows if the non-specific complaints are genuine or not. indypgh is under constant assualt by ill-intentioned mostly right wing trolls seeking to engage in non-constructive attacks. this also makes people unlikely to take seriously negative comments better addressed in person. on the other side people responding are also anonymous and unlikely to respond in a public forum the way they might in person.
i'd encourage the complaintent to step back and think of another way to raise these concerns so that they might get addressed. maybe a email to the groups they have an issue with? that states what they feel the problem is and what could be done to correct it? for those responding it might be better to simply stop responding as this feeds a cycle that's negative to the movement.
for the 80th time
by dammit
Monday, Jun. 06, 2005 at 1:15 PM
for the 80th time i had already e-mailed POG before regarding this stuff and am on their mailing list. stop suggesting things i have done and told you i did. Anyways, i feel the issue has been resolved enough and i no longer have a complaint. the anonymous POG folk who were kind enough to respond to my concern of lack of outreach to people who often contact them is sufficiently addressed. Some people used my general issue to open larger wounds and that is the business of those doing such griping. So the issue is dead to me now. But i can't help it if others used it as a forum to air other problems with POG. Oh and i still feel this approach was necessary to address this complaint i had due to the elitist arrogance of a small minority within POG that i don't feel like dealing with. My complaint was addressed and resolved. Proof that this approach worked.
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