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An Outsider's Perspective
by Alexander Meseguer Sunday, Mar. 20, 2005 at 10:21 PM
alex.meseguer@gmail.com (862) 703-0884

A series of photos from the march, chosen as the most interesting ones from the perspective of a non-activist with a journalism background.

An Outsider's Perspe...
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Colorful Headgear
by Alexander Meseguer Sunday, Mar. 20, 2005 at 10:21 PM
alex.meseguer@gmail.com (862) 703-0884

Colorful Headgear...
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A unique hat worn at the rally before the march.

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A Man Apart
by Alexander Meseguer Sunday, Mar. 20, 2005 at 10:21 PM
alex.meseguer@gmail.com (862) 703-0884

A Man Apart...
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A Duquesne graduate student marched alone in front of the crowd. His sign thanked the troops and said "Real Liberals Fight Tyranny." He told me he wasn't pro-war, but in favor of doing something to protect the freedoms Americans enjoy.

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Police on the Hill
by Alexander Meseguer Sunday, Mar. 20, 2005 at 10:21 PM
alex.meseguer@gmail.com (862) 703-0884

Police on the Hill...
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A contingent of officers watch from the hill where Forbes Avenue turns to run along CMU on the edge of Squirrel Hill.

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Officially Unofficial
by Alexander Meseguer Sunday, Mar. 20, 2005 at 10:21 PM
alex.meseguer@gmail.com (862) 703-0884

Officially Unofficia...
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A marcher sports an ironic piece of clothing.

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The Young
by Alexander Meseguer Sunday, Mar. 20, 2005 at 10:21 PM
alex.meseguer@gmail.com (862) 703-0884

The Young...
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Many parents, young and old, came out to join the protesters.

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Confrontation at SEI
by Alexander Meseguer Sunday, Mar. 20, 2005 at 10:21 PM
alex.meseguer@gmail.com (862) 703-0884

Confrontation at SEI...
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The Software Engineering Institute was the scene of a insult. A short, tense, but ultimately peaceful exchange occurred between them.

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Rhythm and Rhyme
by Alexander Meseguer Sunday, Mar. 20, 2005 at 10:21 PM
alex.meseguer@gmail.com (862) 703-0884

Rhythm and Rhyme...
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Chants and music could be heard throughout the march. "Money for jobs and education, not for war and occupation!" was a popular one.

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Deadly Statistics
by Alexander Meseguer Sunday, Mar. 20, 2005 at 10:21 PM
alex.meseguer@gmail.com (862) 703-0884

Deadly Statistics...
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The power of numbers was leveraged to provide a basis for the marcher's criticisms of the government.

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Resonance
by Alexander Meseguer Sunday, Mar. 20, 2005 at 10:21 PM
alex.meseguer@gmail.com (862) 703-0884

Resonance...
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A drummer beats away in front of the William Pitt Union, adding his own rhythm to the makeshift band and circle dance.

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Red and Black
by Alexander Meseguer Sunday, Mar. 20, 2005 at 10:21 PM
alex.meseguer@gmail.com (862) 703-0884

Red and Black...
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The Anarchists showed up. The Anarchist always show up.

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No Animals Were Harmed
by Alexander Meseguer Sunday, Mar. 20, 2005 at 10:21 PM
alex.meseguer@gmail.com (862) 703-0884

No Animals Were Harm...
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The Pittsburgh Police made an impressive, but not overwhelming show of force with their wall of equine flesh containing the rally at the William Pitt Union.

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Power To The People
by Francine Monday, Mar. 21, 2005 at 11:12 AM

Thanks to all who came out to support the March 19 march and rally here in Pittsburgh. We had a great turn out! It's people supporting our efforts that make rallies like Saturday's a huge success. Francine Codepink/AWC

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Impressive but I'll stick with my original assessment
by Sal Paradise Monday, Mar. 21, 2005 at 12:15 PM

Saturday's march and rally achieved nothing. By taking place in Squirrel Hill and Oakland, where ninety-five percent of the population already disgrees with the war in Iraq and Bush's policies, all that occurred was the proverbial preaching to the choir. It would have been a much better idea to protest at a major population center like a shopping mall. Everytime I go somewhere like South Hills Village, every other car I see has some sort of pro-Bush sticker on it. Until anti-war protests are moved to heavy population centers and disrupt the daily routines of supporters of the Bush doctrine, the anti-war movement will continue to be completely ineffective and only receive back page news coverage.

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Impressive but I'll stick to my original assessment.
by Sal Paradise Monday, Mar. 21, 2005 at 12:18 PM

Saturday's march and rally achieved nothing. By taking place in Squirrel Hill and Oakland, where ninety-five percent of the population already disgrees with the war in Iraq and Bush's policies, all that occurred was the proverbial preaching to the choir. It would have been a much better idea to protest at a major population center like a shopping mall. Everytime I go somewhere like South Hills Village, every other car I see has some sort of pro-Bush sticker on it. Until anti-war protests are moved to heavy population centers and disrupt the daily routines of supporters of the Bush doctrine, the anti-war movement will continue to be completely ineffective and only receive back page news coverage.

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Agreed
by WineToWater Monday, Mar. 21, 2005 at 4:48 PM

I totally agree with this. This protest did nothing except give people a good time. Everyone needs to start meeting with people in rural areas. When you go to someone's house who has a support our troops sign outside of their house, it usually means they have a son or daughter in the military, if you go respectfully they will probably invite you in for coffee. This gives you a chance to visit with troop's families and personally show your opinions. We need to make this more personal. if interested e-mail wintetowater@gmail.com

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How was this a success?
by WineToWater Monday, Mar. 21, 2005 at 4:49 PM

How was it a success?

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Why it's a success
by gwen Tuesday, Mar. 22, 2005 at 3:59 AM

Marches and showings of this sort of thing rarely change anyone's opinion in and of themselves. What they do is help support the people who have the same opinion (which is important when it's an unpopular opinion).

In other words, yes, Squirrel Hill and Oakland already agree with the protest, and that is why they are the best stage for it. It's a way to let the communities know they're not alone. Further, it is where more people who are prone to protest can show up and share information about the cause.

Ultimately, allowing the opinion to be solidified among those who have it can attract more people to that side of the argument. But that takes a lot more time and information dispersed.

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Marches are effective...
by in identifying hte idiots Tuesday, Mar. 22, 2005 at 8:44 AM

This is why I moved out of squirrel hill. I got sick and tired of the hated and venom of the protesters and those most prone to protest.

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name them
by sd Tuesday, Mar. 22, 2005 at 10:03 AM

can you please tell us the approximate date and the subject of these numerous protests held in Squirrel Hill that drove you from that neighborhood.
thank you

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effectiveness and rural antiwar
by Jeff Tuesday, Mar. 22, 2005 at 10:26 AM
whirlwind37@gmail.com

Protests like this work because they get media attention, even though it’s not a lot, it gets some. The media has been obsessed with stories like Terry schiavo and Steroids in Baseball in order to detract attention from Iraq. Protests like this remind people that there is still a war going on over there.

As for taking your message to the rural areas. Well I live in a rural area. Greene County to be exact. And I have to tell you that having 1000, 2000, or 3000 people coming out from the city and down here to protest the war would be a bad idea. Why? Mostly because they would be seen as outsiders looking to come to town to cause trouble. I believe antiwar message would best if it were a grassroots effort done by people inside the rural community and not from someone outside. A local voice has far more impact in a small community than someone distant.

And don’t be so sure no one is doing anything in rural areas either. Here in Greene County in the past we’ve had groups like the Greene Doves who put on small antiwar rallies and organized boycotts of the goods and services of some of corporations tied to the Iraq war. I also understand places like New Castle Uniontown have has a few antiwar rallies themselves.

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protesting at malls
by burb hater Tuesday, Mar. 22, 2005 at 11:25 AM

several decades the u.s. supreme court provided safety to suburbanites against an urbane influences by ruling that malls were private property. that's why you never see protestors or petitoneers at malls. they're not allowed by law

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It was more due to
by the abundance of idiots Tuesday, Mar. 22, 2005 at 11:35 AM

like the kid flipping of the cop at SEI. It was more the fact that you can get fairly quickly snubbed for reading the Wall Street Journal and wearing a suit at Cafe 61C or Starbucks. You are subject to insults (like those from the kid who flipped off the cop) for merely exercising your rights to political free speach by having a Bush sticker on your car or helmet. You may not get served at some of the cafes if you were an outed Republican. Your neighbors would not respond to a friendly hello, and were given to gossip about your political self. You were guaranteed to have your property assaulted if you have a Bush placard on your yard. The protest on Forbes and Murray last fall was pretty frightening as people screamed insults and shouted hateful messages about Bush and the Republicans. It was all of these very unfriendly unneighborly acts that made me realize that the liberals in the so-called community were really scary people who were not afraid to assault someone or their property just for expressing a different political view. It is a very scary community that you all have built for yourselves (and I mean it is clear for YOURSELVES, since no diversity of thought is welcomed).

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This is what I meant.
by Sal Paradise Tuesday, Mar. 22, 2005 at 12:10 PM

Gwen, Burb Hater, and Jeff reinforce my thesis exactly. It is the kind of weak and defeatist attitude that is shown in their comments that preventing a broader movement from taking root, not only in Pittsburgh but around the country.

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Does anyone have?
by endlessMyk Tuesday, Mar. 22, 2005 at 1:07 PM
endlessmyk@hotmail.com

I'm hoping to find pictures of two individual protesters. The guy had a sign that said "How Many Lives Per Gallon" on one side and the other had a painting of the flag with "These Colors Don't Run the World" over it. The girl had a sign saying "NO WAR" on one side and "KNOW PEACE" on the other. She was standing infront of the frat boys giving them the peace sign for a while. If anybody has pictures of them please e-mail them to meat endlessmyk@hotmail.com. Thank you!

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To Sal
by Jeff Tuesday, Mar. 22, 2005 at 5:34 PM
whirlwind37@gmail.com

Sal.

You are still making an assumption that no one in rural areas is speaking out or doing anything. I just gave you examples of where there are people doing so. Those are just ones I’ve heard of and I imagine there are more. We just don’t hear much about them.

You are also assuming that there are lots of people that are pro war in rural areas. When we’ve had protests down here we’ve actually had the police ask an individual that was Pro Bush who was disrupting the rally to leave, he did. It was a refreshing change from how I've seen some police act in some of the Pittsburgh protests I've been in.

Most of the people I know around here aren’t happy with what is going on, aren’t happy with Bush either. Especially the older ones. And how do you know you wouldn’t be “preaching to the choir” if you came here too?

No it’s not a defeatist attitude, it’s a practical one. I’ve lived in a rural area for about 3/4ths of my life. I know how people are here. And I know they don’t like people coming from outside telling them what’s right and what’s wrong. Myself and others who are local and who speak out against the war would carry far more weight than someone from the city mostly because the people in the community know us and probably know if we feel strongly about something that we feel is wrong that there might be something to that. And they might be more willing to investigate it more than they would is some stranger walks thru their town telling them what an ass Bush is.

It seems to me that there were a few cmu students on that march route that didn’t agree with your stance on the war, and maybe because they don’t have all the facts. And Im sure there are many other people in the city that don't have all the facts. Wait till you reach everyone in your own back yard before you start on someone else's I think it’s always best to fix your own problems before you go off fixing others. Isn’t that what we as a country are trying to do in the Middle East and failing at?

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Liberals are scarey people
by UG Wednesday, Mar. 23, 2005 at 4:31 AM

You have GOT to be kidding me. Gee, if you left Squirrel Hill because of fear of some kind of assault from the nasty residents there, then you have got issues with paranoia. Squirrel Hill is probably one of, if not THE safest city neighborhood. I've lived all over the city including Sq. Hill and there aren't too many places i'd feel safe walking home at 2am from the bars, but Sq. Hill is one of those places. Tell me what coffee shop refused service to you. And just how did they know you were an "outed" republican. I think you are making this story up. I've seen plenty of WSJ readers in Sq. Hill coffee shops, and they were all sipping a coffee. People like you live in fear, and that's why the tactics used prior to the last election worked for the administration. Hey, when was the last time we heard of a terror alert -post election? I can't think of any. But there sure were plenty leading up to November 2nd.

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i
by i Wednesday, Mar. 23, 2005 at 4:59 AM

"Hey, when was the last time we heard of a terror alert -post election? I can't think of any. But there sure were plenty leading up to November 2nd."

About a week ago. When was the last time you read about the big arms depot that was supposedly left unguarded and subsequently looted? There were plenty of articles leading up to November 2nd.

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The cop wasn't getting flipped off
by Danny P Wednesday, Mar. 23, 2005 at 7:43 AM

The cop wasn't getting flipped off; I have the whole moment on video (stay posted to pgh indymedia) and a couple of people were flipping of the SEI, because the SEI does war research.

The cop then went up to the person flipping off the SEI, and talked to him- I didn't get the first thing he said on tape, but the person who was doing the flipping took it as a threat.

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fgjfgj
by fgjghj Wednesday, Mar. 23, 2005 at 8:03 AM

ya, as the person in the picture, I wasn't flipping off the cop I was flipping off SEI. I asked the cop how he felt about his support of the war machine and he told me he didn't work for SEI he worked for CMU, odd given that CMU runs SEI and he was guarding SEI. After that he told me he didn't want me to talk anymore and that I BETTER move along.

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I'm sorry, did I break your concentration?
by Sal Paradise Wednesday, Mar. 23, 2005 at 1:21 PM

I have to try one last time to clear up a few things here. The point that I tried to drive across was not that anti-war protests should be extended to rural areas, WineToWater was the one that first proposed that idea. I simply feel that an extension into the city's SUBURBAN areas, like the north and south hills, will reach a far greater pro-war and pro-Bush audience and have a far greater impact in changing people's minds and motivating new participants to join in the anti-war movement than a march through one of Pittsburgh's most liberal neighborhoods.

I agree that there were a fair share hecklers and naysayers along the march route, but; please remember that I was not there and am only going by the pictures that I saw here and the pisspoor coverage in Sunday's Post-Gazette, the majority of them were gnarly jock fratboy assholes who will always have daddy's money to hide behind so they can remain detatched from the suffering of the billions world's poor and exploited.

Sorry if that last sentence sounded to melodramatic.

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Oh I have to try that one
by Officer Krumky Wednesday, Mar. 23, 2005 at 1:48 PM

"Oh no Mr. Police Officer, I was flipping of the large inanimate piece of post-industrial architecture immediately behind you. Nothing personal, so go ahead an put away your billy club and call off the paddy wagon." Yeah right. And that guy who passed me on the parkway this morning didn't like my Honda Accord, it had nothing to do with me.

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Of course you don't see it
by the paranoid nut case that you refer to Wednesday, Mar. 23, 2005 at 3:36 PM

Of course you don't see the hate and rudeness exhibited toward those of a political viewpoint different than yours. Because you are promoting this prejudice. Look at your response to me. Would you ever say to a person of color "tell me where exactly you were made to feel different or threatened because of your ethnicity"? No way. But you don't have to look too far to see that it does happen or how it can exist. you just choose to ignore this *ism when it is applied to your political opponents.

How do you become an "outed" republican in squirrel hill or elsewhere in the city? You show your support for the republican party. You wear a Bush shirt or put a W sticker on your helmet. And when you go into a cafe where some of your oh so open minded neighbors are and you say hello, they sort of snub you and then might take to having a more boisterous discussion of how ignorant Bush is, how anyone who would support him must be a completely uneducated fool, talking about how at the next rally they really need to "take the message to the Republicans" (which sounds to me like my yard signs and car are going to get asaulted again).

So no one wants to take your order at the coffee shop, while they let the protest rally radical youth move ahead of you. You will be confronted at your polling place when you walk in wearing a Bush pin. You will be verbally assaulted ("Augh, how can you vote for that idiot." "Republicans just don't get it" adn on and on).

It is all really silly. It all also is calculated to make your opponents feel unwelcome and different. Not at all unlike any other form of racism. It is intimidation. If someone is willing to come into my yard and repeatedly damage or steal my political yard signs, throw them on my roof, damage my car to remove a sticker, then how do I have any idea where they will draw the line. Will they break a window on my house while I am not home and my pets get out or the house is further damaged by the weather? Will they assault me when I come out of the house and catch them. This stuff didn't just happen to me. It also happened to some of my neighbors who are Republican and also elderly. Granted, there are about 6 Republicans in Pittsburgh and I lived near three of them.

So there you have it. I also enjoyed the City for its convenience and the generally pleasant shopping and dining experiences, but this was just too much BS. Your rallies are all about your hate for your political opposition. It is about your hatred of this President and his supporters. It is about your disdain for diversity of political thought. For all of your banners and placards demanding an "end to the U.S. occupation of Iraq", I did not see a single placard calling for an end to Syrian occupation of Lebanon, a call for democracy in Palestine or Egypt, an end to oppression of women and minorities througout the Arab world, or an end to the social injustices in Cuba. No, all of of those concerns apparently pale in comparison to the horrors brought on by the financial burden to the U.S. for Operation Iraqi Freedom, the proposed restructuring of Social Security, the cuts in funding for public transit, the struggle of Mumia Abu Jamal, and the lack od free universal health care for all in America.

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.
by . Thursday, Mar. 24, 2005 at 5:01 AM

I can't overlook a swastica on someone's armband, and I can't overlook the dubya on your helmet.

Genocide is genocide. You're in support of it. I am not, and will not associate with people who are.

You call it closed minded, I call it moral values.

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i
by i Thursday, Mar. 24, 2005 at 6:54 AM

"I can't overlook a swastica on someone's armband"

Apparently what you HAVE overlooked are the thousands of books that detail the horrors of the Nazi regime. Your nonchalant use of the 'Nazi' label clearly indicates your complete ignorance of history.

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More so.
by Evan Thursday, Mar. 24, 2005 at 7:52 AM

American imperialism has killed more than the Nazis. I think his label is 'correct.' Furthermore I agree that marching from one suburban wealthy district to another was inappropriate and showed lack of solidarity. What was needed was a march through Downtown where we could have shown real solidarity with the working class.

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Wrong again Evan
by dude Thursday, Mar. 24, 2005 at 9:19 AM

Evan, the label is wrong on all bases. It is used by you and others in opposition of this President and the Republican Party as an emotional, loaded and abusive assault weapon. It also does demonstrate a complete ignorance of world history and comparative political philosophy on your part. No wonder that person left Squirrel Hill. I can totally understand that reaction. If you are an African American and live in a community where popular beliefs would have the Stars-and-Bars on every car and store window, then you might find that community intimidating. Maybe a better analogy to your statement woudl be to live in a community where someone would make a statemetn such as yours like "I can't ignore child molester scum, and I can't ignore gay men teaching grade school." Boht that staemtn and your statement are logically and factualy inaccurate in there intended meaning, each only meant to insult and demonize a person (or group) with a broad prejudice. Evan, your approach and response only reinforces the credibility of the person who wanted to get out of Squirrel Hill because of hateful and closed-minded individuals such as yourself.

To equate a Bush sticker to a swastika demonstrates a simplemindedness that is dangerous. Did you equate support for Bill Clinton with the rape of the environment because of Clinton's record of supporting polluters in Arkansas for which his wife was a board member making huge fees? The whole "Bush is Hitler" approach makes meaningful sensible discussion of political and social issues impossible with someone such as yourself. You immediately demonize your opposition (which is actually a tactic used by the Nazi's). Did you ever stop to think that maybe that perosn just has a different political view from yours, and you find it incapable of acceptable that someone can have a view diferent from yours and to be a civil and coureous human being toward them. I think you need to open up your mind a litle more, Evan, and maybe study a lot harder.

Yes, you scare me too.

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.
by . Thursday, Mar. 24, 2005 at 10:48 AM

I stand by my statement.

Genocide is genocide. Burn them, gas them, bomb them. Put a dubya on your helmet, and you show you support genocide and thus are not welcome in my company. End of story.

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I agree with "."
by : Thursday, Mar. 24, 2005 at 11:04 AM

If you are out sporting a U.N. logo then you support genocide and I want nothing to do with you either.

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OK dudes, I swear that this is the last time that I beat this dead horse.
by Sal Paradise Thursday, Mar. 24, 2005 at 12:27 PM

I had all but abandoned my attempts to rally people to take on more radical and diverse methods for protesting America's imperialism and the Bush doctrine when I was struck by the following bit of inspiration while listening to the Howard Stern Show today. While the beautiful Robin Quivers reported on the Terry Schiavo case today, I suddenly realized why the progressive movement is dying and the christian right is taking over this country. These people are willing to travel across the country and get arrested trying to sneak in and feed Mrs. Schiavo a glass of water but, judging from the responses to this thread, people in the Pittsburgh progressive movement are terrified of leaving their safety haven of Squirrel Hill and Oakland and hold marches at shopping malls or downtown for fear of "trespassing on private property." It is that kind of passion of the Christ that is ripping the headliens of the major media away from progressives today.

Is there anyone out there that understands the point that I have been trying to make for the past week or has all my screaming at the wall been just that?

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Some Thoughts...
by USAn Thursday, Mar. 24, 2005 at 12:46 PM

The swastika analogy is not so far fetched - US foreign policy and interventions, in pursuit of the business interests of it's political class, have, directly or by proxy, since WW2, have killed millions, even possibly tens of millions. Read William Blums "killing Hope - US foreign and CIA Interventions since WW2" Of course, Democrats participated in this slaughter too, and GW has a way to go to catch up with Johnson or Nixon.

At any rate, you will find confort to know that I routinely have to remove peace buttons from clothing, and magnetic black ribbons modified with "mourn the victims of US aggression" from my vehicle when head out to suburbia, small towns or rural areas. At my new workplace in a suburban area I often feel the need to park my vehicle rear-bumper inward.

The whole idea of discrimination against republicans or conservatives is complete nonsense. I personally know of workplace discrimination, including firings, in corporate, and government workplaces, for anti-war or left viewpoints. But, I have NEVER heard of anyone getting fired or "disciplined" in any way for right or extreme-right viewponts. Every workplace (even downtown) has the Limbaugh blaring from at least a few radios in the break room or desks. Also, there is not a single bar in the city limits where one can express anti-war, or pro-palestine viewpoints without risk of injury or ejection.

However, I can increasingly talk about many left topics due to the general cluelessness of the US public. For example, I could call Swift-Boat Kerry a "baby-killer" (i.e Vietnamese babies and their mothers) and a Republican would wholeheartedly agree!

As far as Sal paradise's suggestion of moving the demonstration to suburbia, the problem (and scourge) of suburbia is that it is a privatized environment. Publicly-owned space, often even sidewalks, don't exist. I wrote "scourge" because First-Amendment rights do not exist for practical purposes in most of suburbia because effective free speech rights do not exist on private property. The property owner can legally have you arrested for trespassing for any reason he feels like, including your political views. Yes, it has happened. I'm sure you heard of the person (in Rochester NY (?) arrested at a mall for merely wearing a t-shirt with the word "peace" on it. So, the only public space to hold the demonstrations is right in the middle of the car-covered boulevards, and surely they are not going to close McNight Road, Business Rt. 22/Monroeville or such, for a demonstration. Even if they did, we would be even more invisible - largely out of sight beyond the expanses of parking lots.

Also, I wouldn't call any part of the suburbs "population centers" except perhaps some malls on weekends - and they are off-limits (except for civil disobedience) for reasons stated earlier. The population density in the City of Pittsburgh is much higher than the suburbs. The impression of population in the suburbs is only because of much higher amount of car usage - a result of suburbs being "not dense enough".

Having written all of the above, I agree there are places where the march could have been more visible - it could have been routed down Murray and/or Walnut instead of the mostly residential area along Forbes. But I did not participate in the hard work of organizing so I am not in much a position to complain.

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Sal P...
by USAn Thursday, Mar. 24, 2005 at 12:50 PM

I hope you read the last half of my last post above.

f you think you have a good idea for a protest venue in the suburbs, get active in the Thomas Merton Center Anti-War Comittee. Go to their web site and contact Pete Shell.

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Now you have....
by Activist Thursday, Mar. 24, 2005 at 2:42 PM

"But, I have NEVER heard of anyone getting fired or "disciplined" in any way for right or extreme-right viewponts." -- Sal

SEE BELOW:

PLAYGIRL editor-in-chief Michele Zipp has been stripped of her duties after she revealed how she voted Republican in the 2004 election. http://www.drudgereport.com/flash3pg1.htm

Zipp, in an e-mail, claims she was fired after an onslaught of liberal backlash.

"Hello Drudge,

"After your coverage of my article about coming out and voting Republican, I did receive many letters of support from fellow Republican voters, but it was not without repercussions. Criticism from the liberal left ensued. A few days after the onslaught of liberal backlash, I was released from my duties at Playgirl magazine.

"After underlings expressed their disinterest of working for an outed Republican editor, I have a strong suspicion that my position was no longer valued by Playgirl executives. I also received a phone call from a leading official from Playgirl magazine, in which he stated with a laugh, "I wouldn't have hired you if I knew you were a Republican.

"I just wanted to let you know of the fear the liberal left has about a woman with power possessing Republican views."

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050308/nytu139_1.html

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Yinz guys cut the BS
by C Thursday, Mar. 24, 2005 at 3:15 PM
maxfarrand@hotmail.com

Will yinz guys cut the damned BS?

I'm down for the free speech, but it seems that Indypgh has only one kind of conversation: the mine's bigger than yours type.

Item: Can you smell republican like perfume? if not, how can rude coffee clerks know you're republican? Moreover who cares? Squirrel Hill is not in a conspiracy against you. But then again, its a local coffee shop,and they are probably poorly paid...

Item: People get fired for dumb shit. Sometimes they think its not their fault...they then attribute it to something its not...especially in the media...Sean Hannity tried it, and it was stupid then too.

Item: Stupid anarchists will always provoke stupid jocks at stupid frats. We just gotta deal with that. Somehow, they got it in their heads that yellin' and carryin' on is some kinda rebellion. But the news loves it. Then stupid anarchists will complain the stupid news misrepresents them...duh.

So, now that covers "both sides of the isle", can we carry on with our merry discusion...?

Who was talking about the pros and cons of takin' it to the burbs and rural areas.....

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Stay Away
by BURBMAN Thursday, Mar. 24, 2005 at 3:25 PM

As Jesse Jackson said "STAY OUT THE BURBS !"

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I give up.
by Sal Paradise Thursday, Mar. 24, 2005 at 6:15 PM

I officially give up. From now on, I will fight the fight by myself. My words and ideas have been completely brushed off without any consideration whatsoever and I have been shit upon by other posters such as Activist who attributed USAn's words to me to libel my good name.

What difference would it make for me to contact the powers that be at the Thomas Merton Center if it is run in the same inefficient way and by the same type of people that post on this website. Enjoy your continued wallowing in obscurity and enjoy being a total joke.

I've decided that with the kind of pussies in the left these days, it is best to throw in the towel and become your everyday Republican scum. If anyone wants me, I can be found either a church or some kind of pro-life/pro-war/pro-privatization, etc. rally.

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Breathe
by Quinten / Editorial Collective Thursday, Mar. 24, 2005 at 6:46 PM

I've been looking over this thread with interest. Compared to some discussions that happened here a year ago or so, it's been relatively civilized, but don't forget that things can seem more heated in an Internet forum type discussion than they would in real life.

One last comment: the editorial collective for this website itself is also open to new members, and could probably use some new blood. We have a meeting coming up next Saturday in the comfortable liberal enclave of Oakland, at the Kiva Han on Craig St.

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sorry
by endlessMyk Thursday, Mar. 24, 2005 at 7:47 PM

Sorry to hear that Sal. I found your post quite interesting and wouldn't mind hearing more of your opinions/thoughts. Best of luck, sign up for the NRA!

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Thank you endlessMYK
by Sal Paradise Friday, Mar. 25, 2005 at 3:40 AM

During a lull in my duties as a new intern on the O'Reilly Factor, I decided to log on to see how detatched the liberals remained from the truth of the Social Security Crisis and taken aback by the positive words of endlessMYK. I snapped out of my haze and immediately went down to the nearest Greyhound station and traded in my AK-47 for a one way ticket back to da burgh.

Let the Revolution begin!

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WOW
by suzycue Friday, Mar. 25, 2005 at 5:24 AM

The editor of Playgirl was a Republican?! Glad they fired her. It is odd that the editor of Playgirl would be a Republican. I thought they were against all that wanton promiscuity and sexual liberation stuff. Besides, Republicans are incredibly not sexy. I think Playgirl can expect sales to increase now.

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Dear Sal P...
by USAn Friday, Mar. 25, 2005 at 8:53 AM

I outlined some very precise points why a LEGAL protest is very difficult in the suburbs. Please, I welcome you to rebut my points. However, an illegal, civil disobiedience-type action at a mall or in the middle of Mcknight Road or Rt. 22/Monroeville would be a splended idea!

At any rate, nothing gets organized sitting in front of your PC typing comments. It is through a lot of hard work planning and organizing. That is why I referred you to the Merton Center Anti-War Comittee. Alternatively, get a hold of Quinten for helping out on IMC.

Excuse this digression, but, as far as the whole city/suburb divide, the upcoming peak oil and/or global warming crisis will render the whole inefficient, sprawling, car-oriented suburban infrastructure unworkable in the very near future. It is not far off when all routine travel will be by bicycle, public transit, intercity train, small electric personal vehicle, or just walking. This will require compact urban spaces which will need to look a lot some current-day inner Pittsburgh neighborhoods. (Roll over Walt Disney; the true Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow will likely be Bloomfield!) In contrast, one can only live in suburbia through a state of denial, or through disregard for future generations - that's why leftists tend to avoid suburbia, especially in Pittsburgh - one of the few major US cities where urban living is affordable. I will be scheduling a screening of the documentary "The end of Suburbia" here soon.

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I agree with "." and ":"
by ;) Friday, Mar. 25, 2005 at 12:16 PM

If you are going to go around driving an SUV you an Earth raping environmetal Nazi, and I want nothing to do with you.

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great f'in idea
by Arab Patriot Friday, Mar. 25, 2005 at 1:42 PM

That makes a whole lot of stupid sense...let's go walk around in the middle of Route 19 or 22. Two of the most dangerous roads in the area. oh f'n brilliant. Hey, Route 22 is not murray avenue dimwit. You can go out there and march if you want, but count me out ! Those surburbanites would just as much run you down for crossing with the light, and you want to have a protest march there. That will be real effective for getting some media coverage....and making us all look like the idiots that the right wingnutz say we are.

how about you take your own advice and start planning a SERIOUS protest in the burbs. Let's take it to the streets, just not to route 22. you better find someplace on a PAT route or else 97% of us will not be able to get there. How about a rally in the parking lot of Ross Park Mall. We all show up, go buy a cookie (so we are paying patrons of the mall) and then go out to the parking lot and start our rally walking around the access roads that cricle the Mall (which are public thoroughfares given over by the developers to the municipality so the developers don't have the responsibility for those roads).

I think April 15 would be a great day for this, since everyone will have to pay their taxes and they can see what they are paying taxes for...an unjust unilateral war of aggression against the innocent people of Iraq so that we can still pay $2.50 for a gallon of gas. Drive the point home that those tax dollars need to be spent here at home for the important issues that this war is being used to smokescreen.....healthcare, social welfare reform and social security. I am not the one to organize anything since I have to work four f'n jobs to live. But you sound like you got it under control. so let's take this party to the people. let's take the party to the frightened little republican rat who left squirrel hill to get away from us. educate and eradicate.

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how dumb
by sue Thursday, Mar. 31, 2005 at 11:28 AM

Boy that idiot really got your point across by flipping of a building & a city cop!!!!!!!!! You guys are real activists...how pathetic is that?! Go over to baghdad and stay!

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Oh Sue, you have so many names.
by Suey Thursday, Mar. 31, 2005 at 11:46 AM

gee.

i wonder if "sue" is the same person who's been posting so many other divisive things in the other threads on indypgh.

here "sue", i'll help you out since you apparently can't read. first off, it's a cmu cop not a city cop. secondly, the the person already said they were flipping off SEI. same as everyone was yelling fuck sei at the event. you can disagree with that all you want but at least get the facts right. and no, i don't think i'll be going to iraq, it's your friends over there. the soldiers and the terrorists. i'll be staying right here, not dying thank you very much.

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THere are thousands of us, but only one of them
by Suey Suey, here piggy piggy Thursday, Mar. 31, 2005 at 12:03 PM

That's would be funny if it were not so pathetically stupid..... So there is just one person who posts "divisive" posts, to disrupt the throngs of "intellectuals" nad "Progressives" here at IMC. GGGGEEEEEEZZZZUUUUUSSSS !!!! I am a progressive and an activist, but I can't believe how full of ourselves we seem to be as a group. Unless we start accepting and understanding that not everyone with a different view on matters (even those within our community) are not less worthy of respect, then we are doomed.

Let me ask you what you would do if someone walked up to you while standing in front of Kiva Han and flipped the bird? You would probably immediately say they were flipping you off and tell them were to go. But hey, they were only flipping of the building or the store because of some political view about the quality or origin of the coffee or the crumbcake. Yeah, I am sure. The whole thing was childish and stupid. If we want to make coherent and understandable protest statements, we are not going to do it that way.

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it is one person trolling.
by . Thursday, Mar. 31, 2005 at 12:13 PM

Umm, it is pretty much one (sometimes 2) people who post the same type of divisive stuff here. There are a wide variety of opinions that get expressed here and in different meeting of groups all over the city. There is no consensus on any issues related to ideology, tactics, or strategy. Some really cool conversations that challenge existing peoples existing beliefs have happened on IMC before, usually people use real names or leave emails. When those happens it's awesome and people learn things.

The difference between that fact and whats taking place now and sometimes occurs here on indypgh is that the posts are clearly from the same one person and they are not constructive. Just like lots of other political sites this place has it's trolls. It's clear the individual isn't really interested in a dialogue or exchange of ideas. You answer one accusation and they just have another one. You discredit or disprove one thing they say and they have another with no aknowledgment of previous things said. This is also true about some people on the left who post here and troll on right-wing sites, but since this is indypgh.org this is what I'm addressing.

And again, since apparently you choose not read what's already been posted the person who flipped off SEI had a conversation with the CMU cop so I'm pretty sure he knew the kid wasn't flipping him off.

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Whether it is one or a thousand
by , Thursday, Mar. 31, 2005 at 2:57 PM

doesn't really matter. Even the so called "divisive" comments are most often relevant to the discussion. In fact, these comments are HIGHLY relevant given that these present a different point of view or even cause reflection upon the original statement. Very often (more often than not) these are comments without personal afront. Even though the commenter, The Lone Troll, is usually met with personal attacks and referred to in demeaning terms such as "troll". The response of the wider community at IMC to these "trolls" is most telling that IMC (including the so-called "progressive movement")is a closed community of narrow thought. There is no room for the "undesirables" and "trolls". Think like IMC, do not criticize IMC, fall in line, or stay the hell away is the motto here. And if that is what the "trolls" are demonstrating then that is a positive thing. IMC should respond with introspection.

I recall, some time ago, there was a posting, in response to similar statements by the IMC Faithful in regards to "Trolls", that the "trolls" should have a gathering. Someone even posted a calender item requesting a meeting at a local establishment of social intercourse. This was not a posting that attacked any perosn or viewpoint here. However, the posting and calender item were removed by IMC. Why? Because IMC is anything but what it says it is (and what it is required to be to maintain its tax exempt status). IMC does not wish to foster the free exchange of ideas or alternative news unless those are within IMC's defined categories.

It is most interesting that the IMC Faithful are so committed to the ideas of "diversity of tactics" which can find justification for wanton acts of public and private property damage, they believe that if anyone ignores their rallies and stateemtns of political thought then those persons must be fascists or just plain stupid, and they are forever screaming foul that "if only we could reach out to those less high-minded folk, they would surely swing to our side". Yet, the posting of a different viewpoint on a website is worthy of the harshest of personal assaults and demands the stifling of that errant voice, they are quick to dismiss any and all alternaitve statements and can not recognize satire in its simplest forms, and they are so unwilling to listen to someone else but demand to be listened to.

Maybe you are right. Maybe you are prescient. Maybe you just monitor the IP addresses like you say you do not and like you want the Feds to believe when it is convenient. Or maybe the trongs of "Freepers" "Trolls" and "Undesirables" that were legion here just 2 years ago have all tired of IMC and moved on the speaking truth to ignorance elsewhere. Then again, maybe I will be invited to join the IMC Editorial Collective. Now THAT would truly be a progressive move.

I believe that I have a far better appreciation for the number of "Trolls" at the IMC site than you do. I could probably give you a pretty good number just based on observation that would be many times more than the "Lone Troll Theory". But you wouldn't beleive it and you can not believe, lest it threaten you comfortable existence in the echo-chamber of the IMC Faithful. You could figure this out on your own, but you would rather lie to yourself about this as you do about most every other fault or weakness of the IMC Faithful and its so-called "progressives".

I wish I could take credit for all of the conterprotest and peaceful demonstration that the "Trolls" have exhibited over these several years. But that would not be honest. Regardless, I may be resigned to move on myself and leave you all with the lessons told to develop your own wisdom and stature organically from these.

Be safe. Be wise. Be cool. Adios, Mouseketeers.

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Respect for anonymous posters / editorial board membership
by Danny P Saturday, Apr. 02, 2005 at 3:40 PM
dannyp@indypgh.org

To address some points raised by the poster immediately above my comment.

The IMC is not, in my personal opinion,

This is a news site, designed for sharing of independent news. As such it is not *designed* for flamewars or debate; forums like usenet and mailing lists are better suited for this task. We also do not claim to support all types of speech on this site; the policies, easily accessible from the toolbar near the header of the page, spell out that various forms of speech are not tolerated here- mainly, disinformation, threats, racism, sexism, homophobia, etc.

Beyond that, the IMC works to provide a venue for news about the community. You've mentioned that you think it would be a progressive step for the editorial board to include you in its membership; but given the membership criteria, technical and social problems, and a whole host of issues, it is simply not possible to give membership to fully anonymous contributors. Whilst we respect the right of people to contribute news anonymously, if you'd like to join the editorial collective, first you have to get involved. There are monthly meetings (there was one earlier today) and anyone who has an interest in helping the administration of the IMC is encouraged to come.

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That' very interesting
by Danny Boy Monday, Apr. 04, 2005 at 3:11 AM

POSTED ABOVE:

The IMC is not, in my personal opinion,

A discussion site
An online forum
Committed to allowing all types of speech to be practiced on its website.
This is a news site, designed for sharing of independent news. As such it is not *designed* for flamewars or debate; forums like usenet and mailing lists are better suited for this task. We also do not claim to support all types of speech on this site; the policies, easily accessible from the toolbar near the header of the page, spell out that various forms of speech are not tolerated here- mainly, disinformation, threats, racism, sexism, homophobia, etc.
________________________

That sure doesn't square with the IMC stated or tax exempt purposes. If you are not a discussion forum, then why ARE you a discussion forum. If you have alowed a discussion forum to exist, then you can not willy nilly select to violate teh free speech of the participants. Many times IMC censors specch not because it is a (loosely defined) flame war, but because it does not fit with a specific viewpoint or it challenges IMC.

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Agree
by C. Monday, Apr. 04, 2005 at 4:16 PM

Funny; I agree with both of you.

Perhaps you should split the difference:
Let the news be independant news to your specs...
Let the "add a comment" be an open forum where no one is censored NO MATTER WHAT.

After all, if the alternative adapts the policy of the mainstream, is it alternative?

Just a thought.

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Why is it?
by Patrick Tuesday, Dec. 05, 2006 at 4:35 PM

Why is it that "these" people always show up for peace rallies. They look like they are getting ready for some kind of urban war.

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Why is it?
by Patrick Tuesday, Dec. 05, 2006 at 4:35 PM

Why is it that "these" people always show up for peace rallies. They look like they are getting ready for some kind of urban war.

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