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Marhaba,Pittsburgh, And Salaam
by Jonas Friday, Aug. 29, 2003 at 12:25 PM
Qalqiliya, Palestine

ForPgh Indymedia: Hello Pittsburghers-- this is Jonas in Palestine-- Just Writing to Give all an update and to remind everyone of this currenton-going Occupation

Marhaba,Pittsburgh, ...
final_project--_apartheid_wall.jpg, image/jpeg, 483x362

Marhaba Pittsburgh. Hello.

I am sitting here in Qalqiliya, Palestine at one of the internet cafes, keeping updated as to what is happening back there in my hometown, Steel City, Iron Cityof the Burgh.

I saw the photos and video and read the accounts of the day at the march/rally of Stop the Occupation in Iraq. And I hear that an email of mine was read the at the rally about the Occupation here in Palestine.

And sorry about the arrest. Cops suck!

So I am writing to all of you for your help on behalf of the Palestinians. Many of my newest best friends are sitting here in the cafe with me. Terrorists I hear peole like my mother call them. I can only laugh when I hear that now. After spending so little time here, although it has felt like decades, hearing the storiesof the men and women and children, all asking for one thing. Peace. Terrorists. Ha. Its even funnier when I can look off the roof of my flat and see the "security wall". The APARTHEID WALL. I watch in the darkness the sniper towers. At first I would peer over the edge- the first couple days-- afraid that, knowing I am an international here in solidarity with the Palestinians-- that they wouldnt hesitate to point their made-in-america f-16s my way and blowmy brains out like they did so many others. But that would be living in fear wouldn't it. So I gaze over the edge of the roof in the night and try to see the whites of their eyes. But only darkness.

The locals here appreciate our work-- the International Solidarity Movement-- they appreciate the fact that we left our homes with "air conditioning and girls and movies" and what not--to come here to Qalqiliya ("of all places") --one of the most conservative cities in the west bank-- and surrounded by the ApartheidWall.

Once, not so long ago, this city was a thriving center for life-- trading, farming, work, etc. Jews Moslems and Christians from Israel and Gaza and the West Bank frequented this once-amazing city. The Wall and the checkpoints and the unbearable living conditions made this city of Qalqiliya into a dark, depressing tale of underdogs fealing the wrath of a powerful army, supported by powerful armies, forgotten by the world.

Thats why I am writing to you Pittsburgh. In addition to the "STop the Occupation in Iraq"-- why not converge somewhere like 5th and Craig or Market Square or Forbes and Murray-- make some signs: "Dont Forget Palestine" "No Sharon" "STop Aid to Israel" "Stop the Occupation (ofPalestine)"... This is asked of me by the Palestinians here. "Jonas, please, when you get home, don't forget us, tell our stories".... And I will do this when I get back-- but, if you are bored back there in Steal City guys, then dont hesitate to remind people about the On-going Occupation here in Palestine.

Show these pics I have included of the Wall here in Qalqiliya. And of the Israeli Occupation Forces demolishing 140 stores and homes in the City of Nablusfor no reason at all--the owners weren't even allowed to salvage their supplies from the stores... "For Israeli Security." Thats what they say. Thats what they always say.

Stop the Occupation!
Stop the Occupation of Palestine!
Stop the Occupation of Iraq!
Stop the Occupation of our very own U S of A which has been hijacked by those insane cowards in Washington.

Get out on the streets and I will see you there when I return.

Salaam,
Jonas

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Step 1: Find some paint and paint
by Jonas Friday, Aug. 29, 2003 at 12:25 PM
Qalqiliya, Palestine

Step 1: Find some pa...
hey_thats_me--_why_not_paint_on_some_walls_in_the_burgh.jpg, image/jpeg, 280x373

This is some members of the ISM and myself painitng the apartheid wall with Palestinian flags-- just on the other side is Israel-- seeking separation from those people on this side of the wall whose ultimate goal is ethnic cleansing of the indigenous palestinains

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Israel Occupation Forces Hard At Work
by Jonas Friday, Aug. 29, 2003 at 12:25 PM
Qalqiliya, Palestine

Israel Occupation Fo...
store_demolitions_by_iof.jpg, image/jpeg, 483x278

Demolishing Homes in Stores in Nablus last week for no reason at all-- and people say they are seeking peace. Excuse me while I chuckle

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IOF continues....
by Jonas Friday, Aug. 29, 2003 at 12:25 PM
Qalqiliya, Palestine

IOF continues.......
storedemolitions2.jpg, image/jpeg, 483x275

To use their massive military power,sponsored by the US government, to do whatever they damn well please under the fascade of "Israeli security"

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And then....Becauseof the IOF...
by Jonas Friday, Aug. 29, 2003 at 12:25 PM
Qalqiliya, Palestine

And then....Becauseo...
store_demolition3.jpg, image/jpeg, 483x230

There were none.

Fight the occupation!

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you are awesome
by admirer Friday, Aug. 29, 2003 at 5:32 PM

You rock Jonas. I don't know who you are, but I admire you for going there and helping the Palestinians! Keep on rocking! I wish I could do something that great

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you can
by peppy-rpgh Friday, Aug. 29, 2003 at 8:07 PM

Who says you cannot? try painting some walls here with some palestinian flags. Design leaflets to let people know what is going on. Most people are so confused about the middle east. Sttop paying taxes. Help out the local affinity groups around pgh. Start an affinity group. Look in to direct action, because that is what gets the goods. Live your life non-vioently is always a good thing.

Just opposing the occupation and caring for other individuals is a great and amazing thing. If the whole world cared about other individuals, regardless of race, color, ethnicity, religion,ect.... we would be better off.

Look into the ISM and talk to people about joining. Talk to Jonas when he returns.

Loving one another is amazing and suporting the ISM is amazing... so you are doing something amazing.

peace

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So why is it that peace ...
by Yassar Datsmibebe Saturday, Aug. 30, 2003 at 4:01 AM

for the Palestinians and Mr. Arafat means strapping bombs on to children and telling them that heaven awaits them if they go and murder some other (jewish) children? That sounds like a society committed to peace to you? Yassar Arafat and Hamas are nothing more than a ruthless gang of murders. Hamas has NEVER worked for peace. NEVER. Arafat, Hamas and the other Palestinian 'freedom' fighters are more than happy to massacre their own people, their own children. Anyone in the Palestinian 'government' that even attepts to sound a moderate voice is at risk of being murdered by their own people. Sounds like a peace loving society to me. NOT. Stay there Jonas. Maybe they will strap a bomb to you and you will believe the Palestinian dogma so that you will walk into an Isreali internet cafe and do the devil's shitwork like so many 'martyrs' before you. But, hey, on the bright side they might name a street or a bridge after you.

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palestine
by a person Saturday, Aug. 30, 2003 at 6:50 PM

If anyone came into my homeland, raped and killed my family and friends, bulldozed schools, stores, and homes, and put up a huge wall around me, I might become a little angry! Anyone who remembers ever being angry and frustrated may understand why palestinians are strapping bombs to themselves. I am NOT saying its a good idea, but I am saying to look at it from their point of view. These people are desperately trying to reclaim their right to life and freedom. They need help to try and do it in more productive ways, but war is war and the palestinians see it as a bloody war they will fight for until the end.

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Angry Person
by Yassar Datsmibebe Sunday, Aug. 31, 2003 at 4:35 AM

Yes, I remember that time that Kordell Stewart lost the Championship Game to those invaders from New England. I was so angry and frustrated that I was ready to strap on some explosives and blow myself apart, I was so angry I tell you.

What the hell are you saying? That it is anger that justifies the Palestinians senseless murder of Isrealis? That suicide and murder are natural responses to anger and frustration? All you are doing is confirming that the Palestinians have no abilty or desire to negoatiate a peace. And look at it from the Isrealis point of view please. They put up a wall because Hamas and Al Aqsa are sending children into Isreal to kill people in restarauts, schools, and on buses (all non-military targets). And they are bulldozing houses becasue there are terrorists operating out of those houses or maybe the houses were not to be there as part of another settlement with the Palestinians (another agrement which the Palestinians breached, since they do not seem to be able to keep their word.) I do look out it from the Palestinian view and i see no justification or rational for the murder and war perpetuated by Yasar Arafat, Hamas, ALaqsa, et al.

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In the Mix
by Jonas Sunday, Aug. 31, 2003 at 11:48 AM
Qalqiliya, Palestine

In the Mix...
together_peace_is_possible.jpg, image/jpeg, 280x170

I have learned a lot being here in this war-zone, no doubt. And I remember those days sitting back in my safety-zone in Pittsburgh. Sipping on some tea at the Quiet Storm, lounging in my easy chair, hanging with my friends, etc etc. Of course, it wasn't that long ago. But sure as hell feels like it. And I recall reading these responses to posts here on IMC. Yes, how they frustrated me so much of the time-- quarreling about diversity of tactics-- name calling under certain "YOUR NAME (required)" fields like: Anonymous. How great this freedom of speech thing is I would think to myself.

And I dont know everything. I dont know how to bring pecae to this land, how to draw it up under a plan called "The Road Map" or what have you. I do know when I recall the Geneva Conventions and Rights under International Law-- that it is not hard at all, when actually witnessing here in Palestine what is actually happening and not what CNN or FoxNews is reporting-- to see, mater-of-factly-- who is the antagonist.

Kordell Stewart plays a game. Kordell Stewart, though losing whatever Super Bowl to whatever team at whatever time-- still gets paid. He wins when he loses. Kordell Stewart doesn't go demolishing homes and stores of the New Englanders. He doesn't shoot men women and children because of their nationality-- run them over with bulldozers, prevent them from going to school, occupy their homes and eat all their food, let alone occupy their land.

"Angry Person"; "And they are bulldozing houses becasue there are terrorists operating out of those houses... "

Let me take you back a few days to Nablus as you saw in my pictures posted. 140 stores and homes, demolished. Because there are terroritsts hiding in them? Lets get real for a moment. Israel uses such excuses as this terrorist hiding nonsense and words like "for Israeli security" to further attempt to wipe out Palestinian culture and livelihood. Its called "transfer." The idea of the Israeli government to make life so unbearable and difficult for the Palestinians that they decide to move-- to transfer to another land such as Jordan-- thus hoping to purge the land of anything Palestine-- an ethnic cleansing. There were no "terrorists" in these stores. Merely this was a tactic used by the Israeli Occupation Forces to wipe away more jobs and shelter and food supply.

"or maybe the houses were not to be there as part of another settlement with the Palestinians (another agrement which the Palestinians breached, since they do not seem to be able to keep their word"

Houses not allowed to be there? Houses that were already there? Show me where in the Road Map or wherever else you can find stating that these houses cant be there-- and that being there breaches any agreement. And I like your choice of the word "settlement." The illegal settlements that are scattered allllll over Palestine-- Gaza and the West Bank--- these are ILLEGAL settlements. Erected in some places far over the green line, in strategic places --near water resources and farmland-- Like right here in Qalqilya-- surrounded by these settlemts, illegal settlements-- which in turn makes the IOF construct this massive heap of concrete-- the separation abrrier of apartheid. Settlements, which according to the road map, call for dismantling-- settlements which, in this so-called road map to peace-- are supposed to have been halted-- with no further plans for settlemt building-- but yet in continues-- and has NEVER stopped-- placing Israel in breach of the requirements of the road map.

When speaking with the children and adults here in Qalqilya--its hard for me to contain the anger and frustration that boils up inside. Being born into this-- dodging random, low flying live ammunition when the IOF decides to call curfew out of the blue (like they did today)-- being born inside this open air prison--unable to get in or out-- seeing your mother or your father or your brother shot in the back when walking down your own street in your own village-- being born into this zoo can turn the unlikeliest-- most wonderful god-fearing person into something called desperate. Very very desperate.

I do not and cannot condone these attacks-- especially on non-military targets-- nor can anyone I find here in the ISM-- but those Palestinian kids who will head to their first day of school tomorrow are not military targets-- yet were shot at constantly last year-- nor are the shopkeepers or farmers here in Qalqiliya miltary targets-- but were killed and had their land confiscated-- land in their families for generations-- destroyed by the IOF for "military reasons!" I havent lived here but for a month now-- I havent experienced life under Occupation is my existence here on this planet-- thus cannot say that I wouldnt do the same thing if I were placed in the same situation--

Resisting is their right-- is everyone's right under international law when under the treacherous whim of the occupying force-- like the Iraqis--and although I do not support killing of innocents-- killing of anyone for that matter-- I must stand in solidarity in stopping this assanine Occupation--

Salaam




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Murder is Murder, you are right
by Yassar Datsmibebe Monday, Sep. 01, 2003 at 4:44 AM

Your Palestinian friends may have the right to resist whatever they want, but they DO NOT have the right to pursue an undeclared (or declared) war against the Isreali people. The simple reason that the Isreali government must move the settlements is because each time the Isreali government gives an inch on this, the PLO and its subsudiaries are emboldened to go on another killing spree. Even after signing on to the Road Map, Hamas and Al Aqsa decided that they did not like the Road Map and continued the policy of murdering their own children for the "more glorious purpose" (to Yassar Arafat) of murdering even more jewish children. Jonas, if your Palestinian friends want peace in their homeland they must start in their homeland. Or is it that they are afraid that if they suggest peaceful negotiation, and end to the Hamas tactics, and a unified economy, that they too may be murdered and dragged through the streets by the likes of Al Aqsa?

Shalom.

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A Failed Society Collapses
by Kate Monday, Sep. 01, 2003 at 5:25 AM

This is long for a posting - but well worth the read! Not all Israelis speak with one voice; or think with one mind.

A Failed Israeli Society Collapses While Its Leaders Remain Silent

By AVRAHAM BURG
(Avraham Burg was speaker of Israel's Knesset from 1999 to 2003 and is a
former chairman of the Jewish Agency for Israel. He is currently a Labor Party Knesset member. This essay is adapted by the author from an article that
appeared in Yediot Aharonot.)

The Zionist revolution has always rested on two pillars: a just path and an ethical leadership. Neither of these is operative any longer.
The Israeli nation today rests on a scaffolding of corruption, and on foundations of oppression and injustice. As such, the end of the Zionist enterprise
is already on our doorstep. There is a real chance that ours will be the last Zionist generation. There may yet be a Jewish state here, but it will be a different sort, strange and ugly.

There is time to change course, but not much. What is needed is a new vision of a just society and the political will to implement it. Nor is this merely
an internal Israeli affair. Diaspora Jews for whom Israel is a central pillar of their identity must pay heed and speak out. If the pillar collapses, the upper floors will come crashing down.

The opposition does not exist, and the coalition, with Arik Sharon at its head, claims the right to remain silent. In a nation of chatterboxes, everyone has suddenly fallen dumb, because there's nothing left to say. We live in a thunderously failed reality. Yes, we have revived the Hebrew language, created
a marvelous theater and a strong national currency. Our Jewish minds are as sharp as ever. We are traded on the Nasdaq. But is this why we created a
state? The Jewish people did not survive for two millennia in order to pioneer new weaponry, computer security programs or anti-missile missiles. We were
supposed to be a light unto the nations. In this we have failed.
It turns out that the 2,000-year struggle for Jewish survival comes down to a state of settlements, run by an amoral clique of corrupt lawbreakers who
are deaf both to their citizens and to their enemies. A state lacking justice cannot survive. More and more Israelis are coming to understand this as they
ask their children where they expect to live in 25 years. Children who are honest admit, to their parents' shock, that they do not know. The countdown to
the end of Israeli society has begun.
It is very comfortable to be a Zionist in West Bank settlements such as Beit El and Ofra. The biblical landscape is charming. From the window you can
gaze through the geraniums and bougainvilleas and not see the occupation.
Traveling on the fast highway that takes you from Ramot on Jerusalem's northern edge to Gilo on the southern edge, a 12-minute trip that skirts barely a
half-mile west of the Palestinian roadblocks, it's hard to comprehend the humiliating experience of the despised Arab who must creep for hours along the pocked, blockaded roads assigned to him. One road for the occupier, one road for the occupied.
This cannot work. Even if the Arabs lower their heads and swallow their shame and anger forever, it won't work. A structure built on human callousness will inevitably collapse in on itself. Note this moment well: Zionism's superstructure is already collapsing like a cheap Jerusalem wedding hall. Only madmen continue dancing on the top floor while the pillars below are collapsing.

We have grown accustomed to ignoring the suffering of the women at the roadblocks.
No wonder we don't hear the cries of the abused woman living next door or the single mother struggling to support her children in dignity. We don't even bother to count the women murdered by their husbands.

Israel, having ceased to care about the children of the Palestinians, should not be surprised when they come washed in hatred and blow themselves up in the centers of Israeli escapism. They consign themselves to Allah in our places of recreation, because their own lives are torture. They spill their own blood in our restaurants in order to ruin our appetites, because they have children and parents at home who are hungry and humiliated.

We could kill a thousand ringleaders and engineers a day and nothing will be solved, because the leaders come up from below” from the wells of hatred
and anger, from the "infrastructures" of injustice and moral corruption.

If all this were inevitable, divinely ordained and immutable, I would be silent. But things could be different, and so crying out is a moral imperative.

Here is what the prime minister should say to the people:

The time for illusions is over. The time for decisions has arrived. We love the entire land of our forefathers and in some other time we would have
wanted to live here alone. But that will not happen. The Arabs, too, have dreams and needs.

Between the Jordan and the Mediterranean there is no longer a clear Jewish majority. And so, fellow citizens, it is not possible to keep the whole thing
without paying a price. We cannot keep a Palestinian majority under an Israeli boot and at the same time think ourselves the only democracy in the Middle
East. There cannot be democracy without equal rights for all who live here, Arab as well as Jew. We cannot keep the territories and preserve a Jewish
majority in the world's only Jewish state” not by means that are humane and moral and Jewish.

Do you want the greater Land of Israel? No problem. Abandon democracy. Let's institute an efficient system of racial separation here, with prison camps and detention villages. Qalqilya Ghetto and Gulag Jenin.

Do you want a Jewish majority? No problem. Either put the Arabs on railway cars, buses, camels and donkeys and expel them en masse ”or separate
ourselves from them absolutely, without tricks and gimmicks. There is no middle path.
We must remove all the settlements ” all of them” and draw an internationally recognized border between the Jewish national home and the Palestinian
national home. The Jewish Law of Return will apply only within our national home, and their right of return will apply only within the borders of the Palestinian state.

Do you want democracy? No problem. Either abandon the greater Land of Israel, to the last settlement and outpost, or give full citizenship and voting
rights to everyone, including Arabs. The result, of course, will be that those who did not want a Palestinian state alongside us will have one in our midst, via the ballot box.

That's what the prime minister should say to the people. He should present the choices forthrightly: Jewish racialism or democracy. Settlements or hope
for both peoples. False visions of barbed wire, roadblocks and suicide bombers, or a recognized international border between two states and a shared
capital in Jerusalem.

But there is no prime minister in Jerusalem. The disease eating away at the body of Zionism has already attacked the head. David Ben-Gurion sometimes erred, but he remained straight as an arrow. When Menachem Begin was wrong,
nobody impugned his motives. No longer. Polls published last weekend showed that a majority of Israelis do not believe in the personal integrity of the prime minister ” yet they trust his political leadership. In other words, Israel's current prime minister personally embodies both halves of the curse: suspect personal morals and open disregard for the law ” combined with the brutality of occupation and the trampling of any chance for peace. This is our nation,
these its leaders. The inescapable conclusion is that the Zionist revolution is dead.

Why, then, is the opposition so quiet? Perhaps because it's summer, or because they are tired, or because some would like to join the government at any price, even the price of participating in the sickness. But while they dither, the forces of good lose hope.

This is the time for clear alternatives. Anyone who declines to present a clear-cut position ” black or white ” is in effect collaborating in the decline. It is not a matter of Labor versus Likud or right versus left, but of right versus wrong, acceptable versus unacceptable. The law-abiding versus the
lawbreakers. What's needed is not a political replacement for the Sharon government but a vision of hope, an alternative to the destruction of Zionism and
its values by the deaf, dumb and callous.

Israel's friends abroad ” Jewish and non-Jewish alike, presidents and prime ministers, rabbis and lay people ” should choose as well. They must reach out
and help Israel to navigate the road map toward our national destiny as a light unto the nations and a society of peace, justice and equality.

Translated by J.J. Goldberg.


>

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men of peace
by eric Monday, Sep. 01, 2003 at 10:17 AM

"I vow that I'll burn every Palestinian child that will be born in this area. The Palestinian woman and children are more dangerous than the men, because the Palestinian child's existence infers that generations will go on, but the man causes limited danger. I vow that even if I was only an Israeli civilian and met a Palestinian, I would burn him and make him suffer before killing him."

--a statement made by ariel sharon--yes, it's taken out of context but it was made by a man our president bush states is a man of peace

"Don't worry about the Americans, for we control America, and the Americans know it," was what Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said to his cabinet ministers right after George Bush's election.

i do not doubt that there have been equally egregious statements made by palestinian militants. however, yasser datsmibebe's comments posted above do not distinguish between state sponsored terrorism (israeli) and that which is sponsored by radical groups which the palestinian leadership, if it tried its best, would have a difficult time managing. ergo, the 'lack' of the progress of the roadmap. hamas, hezbollah, etc are not, at this time, diplomatic groups mixed into the political process. and to generalize and say to jonas, 'you're palestinian friends' is quite a hasty comment. i, as an american, would not want someone to generalize and state that datsmibebe and i both share the same militaristic opinions because we are american. like everywhere in the world their are many different political opinions held by the people.
and what about the iraeli peace movements? many israeli citizens express their concerns in haaretz(an israeli daily publication), like we americans do, that they are sick of all of their tax dollars being spent on the military in the name of 'security'. and 90% of the residents in the west bank 'settlements' declared that they would leave the area if the government would reimburse them for their investments, which were supported and often subsidized by the israeli government. that's fair on their end. the picture i have of the israelis is that they are equally sick of the spoon fed be-a-good-jew-and-shut-up rhetoric. and the international community, if it is to be represented by the UN, has voted resolutions since 1976 in condemnation of israel's occupation of palestinian lands, vetoed or vote witheld each time by the US, not acknowledging the illegality of israel's occupation. you can check US vetoes at the UN at:

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=3238

you may also read the brief article published recently in the nation accounting for the history of the US relationship with israel at:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4566.htm

this is a very hot debate, unlikely to reach consensus. however, it would be fruitful if heads stay cool enough to evaluate the facts.
peace,
e

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Sorry, but
by bugg Monday, Sep. 01, 2003 at 1:24 PM

Sorry Eric. Sharon is a murderous butcher and his history (Unit 101, 1982 War incl. Sabra and Shatila) proves that, but that quote is fabricated.

It's also a very poor fabrication. It is generally attributed to Sharon during an interview with a "General Ouze Merham" in 1956. This general, as far as anyone can tell, is made up. More importantly in determining that this quote is a fabrication, mind you, is the usage of the word "Palestinian." The Israeli right continues to deny Palestinian existance as a nation and if you've read their media, they will refer to Palestinians as either Arabs or use scare quotes whenever using the term Palestinian. That's today, in 2003. In 1956 Palestinian nationalism really was unheard of and you simply wouldn't find any Israelis using the term Palestinian. Certainly not one like Sharon. Go ahead and attack Sharon for his expansionist policies and his crimes against humanity, but use facts and not myths.

Also, Hezbollah and Hamas most certainly are groups that have political focuses. Had assassinations not taken place during the hudna, had settlements been dismantled instead of expanded, had there been good faith efforts to reach a deal on the prisoner front, etc. then the hudna would have lasted and Hamas would have remained a political force. Hezbollah, on the other hand, is a Lebanese resistance group and should not be lumped together with Palestinian groups, especially those we are writing off as "terrorist." Hezbollah's track record makes it absolutely no more (and it would be easy to argue far less) of a terrorist group than the IDF.

I agree that an emphasis must be placed on facts. It would be nice to have a forum or detailed discussion about this one day, but for me, not today.

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Negotiate
by hamas Monday, Sep. 01, 2003 at 6:04 PM

It's past time for Palestinians to negotiate. They need to negotiate their ass to the east side of the Jordan River where they belong.

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to "hamas"
by bugg Tuesday, Sep. 02, 2003 at 7:39 AM

Hamas, one in three Israelis were not born anywhere between the Jordan and the Mediterranean. They're immigrants.

Now, I believe in the univerality of human rights, and that includes people having a right to home, a right to leave their country, and a right to return. I would therefore *never* propose a course of action that involved civilians having to be uprooted and find somewhere else to live. You, on the other hand, seem to disregard this right: or at least do not regard Palestinians as having this right.

Assuming you're not basing your argument on ethnocentric/religiocentric/racist arguments, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you too believe that everyone has the same human rights. If so, you should know that a third of Israeli Jews are immigrants, and Israeli Jews constitute only half of the population in the territority that Israel exercises soverignty over. If you're going to advocate one side of the conflict just up and leaving - and I'm certainly not saying you should- why don't you argue that the Jews should leave? That argument is no more ridiculous than the one you're making: and both arguments put you squarely in a crowd of idiots and racists. Have a nice day.

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bugg
by JR Tuesday, Sep. 02, 2003 at 9:54 AM

The land belongs to whoever can conquer and defend it.

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JR
by RJ Tuesday, Sep. 02, 2003 at 10:45 AM

IfI take your mother's basement by force of arms, and drag your pasty, sweatpants wearing ass outside, eat your Little Debbies, and break your x-box, will you still feel the same?

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JR
by bugg Tuesday, Sep. 02, 2003 at 3:05 PM

JR, you do not gain the right to ethnically cleanse or otherwise deny rights to the population of land you have conquered. Israel can keep the territories, in fact I believe they should, but they have to give full and equal rights to the people living in them.

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RJ & bugg
by JR Tuesday, Sep. 02, 2003 at 5:53 PM

"IfI take your mother's basement by force of arms, and drag your pasty, sweatpants wearing ass outside, eat your Little Debbies, and break your x-box, will you still feel the same?"

If you're dragging someone out of their mother's basement, you got someone besides me. Good chance you got a member of the Pitt-IMC collective, or probably your sibling.

But, if you were to do this to someone, while you occupied the house, it is yours to roam freely. But, when the cops show up and arrest your ass, or you have a shoot-out and end up dead, don't blame the rest of us. Not only do you have to conquer it, you have to defend it. Something tells me defending what you conquered against the police is not your forte.

So yeah, given you'd either end up in prison or dead, I feel the same. In fact, I hope you go for it.

"JR, you do not gain the right to ethnically cleanse or otherwise deny rights to the population of land you have conquered."

While it might not be the wise thing to do, that is up to the conquering force. Rome decided to make the conquered people citizens of Rome. Other conquering armies have killed every man, woman and child.

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JR
by RJ Wednesday, Sep. 03, 2003 at 1:00 AM

Apples and oranges.
A more accurate depiction wouold be instead of shooting it out with the police, the cops attacked you and your mommy and your "uncle" tried to take the house back, despite my being ordered to leave by a magistrate, in this case, the UN.

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JR, welcome to the present day
by bugg Wednesday, Sep. 03, 2003 at 4:45 AM

That's up to the conquering force?

There are rules of warfare today. If it's really up to the conquering army to do whatever they want, what do you have to say about the Nazis? With your logic, they were acting in the right.

I don't want any part of that logic.

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RJ & bugg
by JR Wednesday, Sep. 03, 2003 at 6:31 AM

"A more accurate depiction wouold be instead of shooting it out with the police, the cops attacked you and your mommy and your "uncle" tried to take the house back, despite my being ordered to leave by a magistrate, in this case, the UN."

Geez. Make up your mind who's taking back the house, will ya.

At least make a believable example. If you were to take a house over here in Pittsburgh and drive out the occupants, the police aren't going to shoot them or turn them away, they coming after you.

Here's a better example. A certain portion of the North American continent is claimed by the USA. That's because we've conquered and defended it, just in case you didn't know. Now, if China decided to land an army on the coast of California, and in a matter of a few years they conquered the land that is now known as the USA, and they occupy and defend the land, then the land would belong to them. Get it?

See, in the past, that's what happened. Some people possess the land, some other people take it by force, now they possess the land. For example, the Persians controlled Babylon, then Alexander the Great comes through and conquers it, and then Greece ran the show there for a while, until the Romans came along. Kinda the way it's been for a long time. You might wanna read up on things like that. They call it "History". Interesting stuff.

"If it's really up to the conquering army to do whatever they want, what do you have to say about the Nazis? With your logic, they were acting in the right."

It's very fortunate that Al Gore didn't invent the internet in the 1920's, otherwise, without Nazi Germany, you Indymedia types wouldn't have any thing to talk about, since we all know all evil in the world today can be directly connected to Nazi Germany.

I didn't say that a conquering army who committed certain acts were "in the right." Don't put words in my mouth. It's rude, it's dishonest, it's in bad form. Shame on you. I simply stated that what they did was up to them. It's called an "axiom".

Of course, like I DID suggest, they need to weigh the consequences of what they do. Rules of war? It's like rules of Love. Hard rules to enforce. And it's only the loser that ever hears about having broken rules.

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Shooting JR
by RJ Wednesday, Sep. 03, 2003 at 6:59 AM

If I stole your house, and you and mommy and your current "uncle" tried to take it back, the police logically would get me out of there.
But with Zionism, the police (US) arm the burglar and kill you and mommy, while defending the burglar who stole your house. It's not that difficult.

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RJ
by JR Wednesday, Sep. 03, 2003 at 7:27 AM

"you and mommy and your current "uncle"

My parents are dead, so if you're trying to make some sort of childish point regarding someone's mothers sexual prowess,............... let's just say you're sick. What are you, 6 years old?

Stick with the program. You're having enough trouble with that.

"The land belongs to whoever can conquer and defend it."

No one has disproved that statement to this point. You can't. You may not like it, but that's how it is.

Did the Palestinians defend their land and succeed? No. It's not the first time in histroy that's happened to a people. It happened to the Jews, too. Therefore, the Palestinians didn't succeed in defending the land, then it's not theirs anymore. Should they fight and get it back, and they can defend it, it's theirs. This has been going on in the world for centuries now. This shouldn't be that hard to comprehend. It's not that difficult.

Regarding the West Bank and Gaza, I say both sides should release the full force they believe necessary, and let the Palestinians and the Israelis fight it out, winner take all.

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JR
by RJ Wednesday, Sep. 03, 2003 at 7:43 AM

The Zionists have not conquered and held the Palestinian land. They are propped up by US weapons and tax dollars. Without unconditional US backing, the the state of Israel would have been a very short experiment. Despite violating hundreds of UN resolutions, more than all other nations combined, and their daily murder of civilians, the US dollars keep flowing.
Despite the obvious Israeli foreknowledge of 9/11, the attacks on the Liberty, and spies like Pollard, as well as their possession of WMD's.
Any claim that they have to land is based on mythology and pinhead fanatics like Bush are happy to humor that. After all without Israel Jaaaysuuus can't come back.

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RJ
by huh!?! Wednesday, Sep. 03, 2003 at 8:04 AM

"The Zionists have not conquered and held the Palestinian land."

They have some of it.

"They are propped up by US weapons and tax dollars."

So what? If you don't like it, write your congressman. If he can't do anything about it, tough.

"Without unconditional US backing, the the state of Israel would have been a very short experiment."

Your opinion.

"and their daily murder of civilians"

Just to go along to make a point, if I were a Palestinian and I was being murdered daily, and the odds of my obtaining victory over Israel was slim and none, and slim just left town, I'd leave.

"Despite the obvious Israeli foreknowledge of 9/11, "

Cool! Second grade/second building. Bush knew. The Jews did it. Keep it rollin'. But, it's up to you to convince the masses. If you can't, don't blame them for not believing you. You should have done a better job of convincing them. After all, you're so much smarter than they are, it shouldn't be a problem for you to convince such simple-minded sheep. A really smart person could do that without even having to think about it. Will you convince the majority to see it the way you do? Let's see how smart you are.

"Any claim that they have to land is based on mythology ....."

The claim they have on the land is that they conquered it and are defending it., Should that cease, they won't be able to make that claim anymore.

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"Art Students"
by RJ Wednesday, Sep. 03, 2003 at 8:18 AM

Take away the US foreign aid, and it's Palestine again. I'm not working with the kind of money the Zionist lobby is, so writing Congress is just stupid. The US has held and defended that land, not the Israelis.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/DailyNews/2020_whitevan_020621.html
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2002/05/07/students/index_np.html
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=271607
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/12/18/224826.shtml

The above links lead to stories about the Mosaad ring busted by DEA. Theyw ere apparently on the trail of Atta and Co. as well as being the people dancing on the van in NJ on 9/11.
I poste dlinks to semi-legitimate sites, at least mainstream as well as the first choice of right wing nutjobs like yourself, Newsmax.

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RJ
by huh!?! Wednesday, Sep. 03, 2003 at 9:00 AM

"Take away the US foreign aid, and it's Palestine again."

Your opinion.

I've read all this junk you linked to before. Like I said, go sell it, see where it gets you. People as smart as the liberal intelligensia should have no problem convincing everyone they have all the answers and know what "really" happened. Go for it! Let's see how smart you are.

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JRhuh2balls
by RJ Wednesday, Sep. 03, 2003 at 9:27 AM

Do the math.Without US money the Zionists would be throwing rocks back at their Palestinian cousins, not Hellfire missles.
The American media gave very little coverage to the Mosaad activities surrounding 9/11, and if it's not on TV, alot, it can't be true.
A good example is the poll from May, where a majority of Americans polled believed that Saddam used chemical weapons on US troops, that Iraq was behind the 9/11 attacks, and that the WMD's had been found. None of which was true.
The liberals won't try to convince anybody of the feeding hand, biting that the Israelis do, as it would violate the code of Political Correctness. Liberals stand in the way of any real change, and I despise them more than you. You're doing this because it's your job.

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RJ
by huh!?! Wednesday, Sep. 03, 2003 at 10:37 AM

"Without US money the Zionists would be throwing rocks back at their Palestinian cousins, not Hellfire missles."

If the Palestinians had hellfire missles and the Jews only had rocks, the Jews would *still* kick their ass. The Jews know how to fight.

"The American media gave very little coverage to the Mosaad activities surrounding 9/11, and if it's not on TV, alot, it can't be true."

Whatever.

"You're doing this because it's your job."

That's right. I'm a paid shill. Is that in your playbook right after the" people who don't agree with us are sheeple"?

Really RJ, you need to hop along and start convincing all those other lost souls out there who are being lead around by there noses by the corporate controlled media. Someone as bright as you, being one of the anarchist intelligensia, should have no problem convincing others, what with all this irrefutable evidence you have.

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reply to huh
by r Wednesday, Sep. 03, 2003 at 1:53 PM

" Just to go along to make a point, if I were a Palestinian and I was being murdered daily, and the odds of my obtaining victory over Israel was slim and none, and slim just left town, I'd leave."

And where are the Palestinians supposed to go?

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Palestinians for Peace
by 2beers Wednesday, Sep. 03, 2003 at 3:38 PM

If the Palestinians wanted peace, they would not be listeining to Yassar Arafat and his thugs. All Arafat is doing is fanning the flames of violence. Arafat wants to so piss off the Isrealis that they come in with the tanks and make a good news shot and old Camel Lips can just go on about how terribly oppressed he is and how much he is working for peace, while at the same time blowing up Palestinian children and sending his thugs out to murder any Palestinians that oppose him. Why don't you all just strap a bomb on to yourselves and blow yourselves up in the interests of peace. The loss of all of you hippy terrorist-loving brain dead unwashed hardcore unemployable perpetual-student law-breaking narrowminded antisemitic rascist tax-loving ludite dysfunctional anti-social ranting dumpster-tossing Starbucks-hating neo-communist bean-curd-eating-flatulent-ozone-destroying misfits would definitely be a beneift to the world.

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Palestinians for Peace
by 2beers Wednesday, Sep. 03, 2003 at 3:38 PM

If the Palestinians wanted peace, they would not be listeining to Yassar Arafat and his thugs. All Arafat is doing is fanning the flames of violence. Arafat wants to so piss off the Isrealis that they come in with the tanks and make a good news shot and old Camel Lips can just go on about how terribly oppressed he is and how much he is working for peace, while at the same time blowing up Palestinian children and sending his thugs out to murder any Palestinians that oppose him. Why don't you all just strap a bomb on to yourselves and blow yourselves up in the interests of peace. The loss of all of you hippy terrorist-loving brain dead unwashed hardcore unemployable perpetual-student law-breaking narrowminded antisemitic rascist tax-loving ludite dysfunctional anti-social ranting dumpster-tossing Starbucks-hating neo-communist bean-curd-eating-flatulent-ozone-destroying misfits would definitely be a beneift to the world.

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wow
by r Wednesday, Sep. 03, 2003 at 8:21 PM

wow, you are a clever one.

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bean curd
by r Wednesday, Sep. 03, 2003 at 8:23 PM

By the way, I don't eat bean curd. Can I eat your stomach? I am sure you have plenty of it.... But then again, I am just making generalizations and that's what you just did. And I definately don't want to be like you.

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2 Beers...
by pjd Wednesday, Sep. 03, 2003 at 9:27 PM

Your remarks about the Arafat show you are ignorant, like most TV-brainwashed Americans, about the situation in Palestine. I am willing to bet a lot of beer you couldn't even find Palestine on a map or answer the following questions: what is the name of the famous Mosque which the current Intafada is named? What is it called in English? What does "intafada" mean? What massacre of civialians in the Lebanon war did Ariel Sharon preside over?

Arafat is a hopelessly wishy-washy indecisive Hamlet who almost sold away Palestinian nationhood in Oslo. He is going senile to boot. He is harmless to Israel, but they use him as a boogyman to whip up zionist-racist fervor in the settlements and west of the green line. Arafat has very little to do with the intrafada and the anti-zionist actions and has just sat on his but while the PA office were ransacked, Jenin was flattened, and legitimate PA policemen were gunned down by the Zionists.

If an election were held in the occupied terrirories right now, Arafat and his party would get the boot and Hamas would win by landslide. They are the only ones fighting against the ongoing genocide.

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Jew Haters
by Lee Thursday, Sep. 04, 2003 at 6:10 AM

We get this:

"Your remarks about the Arafat show you are ignorant,"

followed by this:

"(Arafat) is harmless to Israel........has very little to do with the intrafada and the anti-zionist actions"

Don't know where you've been the last 40+ years but, pass the bong, dude!!

I was in SF when one of your ANSWER protests took place. I followed along to to watch the people. I'd never heard so many pro-Palestinian, peace loving, tree hugging, no war, save the world protesters yell things like "Death To Jews" and "Kill The Jews". So yeah, I know exactly where you "anit-zionist" stand. Don't forget to wear your brown shirts and to goose-step at the next protest.

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Israel=Judaism?????
by pjd Thursday, Sep. 04, 2003 at 9:51 AM

This conflation of Judaism with the recent behavior of the all-too fallable and neo-fascist state of Israel, and the ridiculous charges anti-Semitism that invariably follow, is utter bullshit. This is like saying that condemnation of thug-leaders like Mugabe or Taylor is to be an anti-black racist.

Strangely, anti-semitic bigotry suddenly becomes allowable among "conservatives" when the Jew is a leftist or opposed to the Palestinian persecution.

Go here to see what I mean:

http://www.fair.org/extra/0307/savage-anti-semitism.html

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Furthermore...
by pjd Thursday, Sep. 04, 2003 at 10:02 AM

1. I challenge you to substantiate your preposterous charges of anyone in the peace movement saying "death to the Jews" at a peace rally. Utter nonsense...

2. The charges of ant-Semitism-on-the-left really become strange when one considers most of the leadership on the left (including the previously cited organization FAIR) is Jewish.

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You're Right pjd
by Yassar Datsmibebe Thursday, Sep. 04, 2003 at 11:14 AM

Yeah, all of that anti-semitism from "Conservatives" Republicans adn other right-wingers....they are starting to sound like the Democrats and leftist political officials http://www.photodude.com/weblog/dumped/2002/August/002086.shtml

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How's this for proof of anti-semitism, pjd
by Yassar Datsmibebe Thursday, Sep. 04, 2003 at 12:26 PM

HERE -- For anti-semitism in PA textbooks http://www.edume.org/reports/4/report.htm

HERE -- For a nice archive of RECENT anti-semitic reports in Arab press: http://www.memri.org/antisemitism.html

OR HERE -- For a discussion of the rise of US anti-semitism: http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/268jlqme.asp

As for ANSWER, the violence of the ANSWER protesters against jewish students at UCLA who were at the protest was broadcast on the evening news. It was like somethign straight out of Haifa, with the PLO suporters running down the jewish students.

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anti-semitism
by activist Thursday, Sep. 04, 2003 at 6:24 PM

Hey-
I am an activist and I don't read Palesinian textbooks. Therefore, I am not an anti-semite.

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Regarding CMIP's report on PA Textbooks
by bugg Thursday, Sep. 04, 2003 at 6:41 PM

http://www.geocities.com/nathanbrown1/Adam_Institute_Palestinian_textbooks.htm

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The Palestinian Terrorist Must Be Disarmed
by Yassar Datsmibebe Friday, Sep. 05, 2003 at 4:53 AM

Abbas has to choose between terror and respectability. Recent actions by Hamas and other Palestinian organizations devoted to terrorism, including the August 19 homicide bombings in Israel powerfully demonstrated the failure of the current strategy of Palestinian PM Mahmoud Abbas in implementing the road map for peace. Unfortunately, it had to take the death of 20 Israelis, and the injury of more than 100 others, to prove the point.

Central to the road map is the requirement that the Palestinians dismantle their terrorist organizations. But it should be well understood that there is no negotiating with these terrorists. Agaisnt history and hope, Mr. Abbas believed he could succeed in disarming them through negotiation, rather than force, and heralded a three-month cease-fire declared by the terrorists in June as a sign of his progress. The August 19 attack (the second major attack in violation of the cease-fire) came at the same time that Islamic Jihad leaders were meeting with Abbas to discuss their cease-fire. Islamic Jihad, along with Hamas, claimed responsibility for the killings (although Hamas incredibly denied the cease-fire was over).

It is now clear that the terrorists (Hamas, IJ, al-Aqsa, et al.) merely used the cease-fire as an opportunity to re-arm and re-train for further attacks on Israel. Again this points out that it is unrealistic to believe that Abbas or anyone else could suddenly persuade terrorists dedicated to the destruction of the state of Israel to lay down their arms and accept a two-state solution. These organizations, like al Qaeda, aim to fight until the total destruction of their enemy. It is unfortunate that these organizations create adn continue the circumstance that the only effective response is to destroy them first.

The Palestinian Prime Minister, Mr. Abbas, and his security chief Mohammed Dahlan must immediately and with certainty decide what they want. Will the Palestinian "government" desire and create a Palestinian entity perpetually at war with Israel, or will Abbas and his countrymen sieze this opportunity to swiftly create an internationally recognized state free to build its future. It may be true that the silent majority of Palestinians want a normal life, but the terrorists make it impossible. ANd out of fear of these organizations, it is that the Palestian majority remains silent (or else they may find that the Hamas and al-Aqsa would murder them with all the remorse shown for the murder of innocent Isrealis).

Of course the task before Mr. Abbas and his government will not be easy, but they were full well aware of this. One reason for Abbas' reluctance to crack down is that the Abbas "government" is only in control a fraction of the entire Palestinian security forces. The majority are still in the hands of Yasser Arafat, who is working hard to blow up the road map. A genuine crackdown would mean a political (and maybe police) confrontation with Arafat, some bloody scenes, and perhaps even a Palestinian civil war.

Mr. Abbas has been around Arafat enough to understand his old friend's games. Mr. Abbas was with Arafat at the 1993 Oslo Peace Accords where, like the current road map, the Palestinians were given control of land and in return promised to dismantle the terrorist networks. But instead Arafat rejected Ehud Barak's generous peace offer, launching the intifada against Israel and giving financial and military support to the terrorists.

Like his long-time benefactor adn friend Arafat, Mr. Abbas speaks of "living in peace with Israel" and "dismantling terror." But, Arafat has had a habit of then switching into Arabic and encouraging the suicide bombers in their murderous work. Murder adn hate which was (and is) financed by Arafat's Palestinian Authority. I will allow that Abbas has so far been far more consistent, but he cannot straddle the worlds of jihad and international respectability.

The overthrow of Saddam Hussein's regime, the refusal to deal with Arafat and the presence of a U.S. President committed to fighting terrorism have produced a glimmer of hope that the Israeli-Palestinian question can be resolved. Mr. Abbas has a chance to turn Palestinians away from terror and lead his people to statehood in peace with Israel and the world. However, to do that he must forcibly disarm these terrorists. If he doesn't, Israel has a responsibility to its citizens to do it instead.

I wish Mr. Abbas the best in this most difficult task. And I pray that God may provide him the wisdom to make the difficult decisions that the circumstance of the Palestinian people demand. It will not be easy for a voice of wisdom and reason to unburden an entire society, and entire culture, from the oppressive yoke of Mr. Arafat and his terrorist milieu.

Shalom.

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corrections
by eric Friday, Sep. 05, 2003 at 8:21 PM

bugg, thanks for the corrections on the quotes i posted. i located them in an published article but could not locate the original sources. there i go propagating the circulation of crap. great link to the PA textbooks.

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The Palestinian Terrorrists Claims Another Victim
by Yassar Datsmibebe Saturday, Sep. 06, 2003 at 3:58 AM

FROM THE Associated Press - 9-6-03
Abbas Resigns as Palestinian Prime Minister,

Serious Blow to Peace Plan --

RAMALLAH, West Bank -- Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas resigned Saturday, said chief Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat. The resignation dealt a serious blow to U.S.-backed peace efforts.

Mahmoud Abbas submitted his resignation in a letter to Yasser Arafat, said Erekat. A Palestinian official who spoke on condition of anonymity said Yasser Arafat has accepted the resignation of Mr. Abbas.

Palestinian legislator Hanan Ashrawi said she met with Mr. Arafat after he received the letter, and that the Palestinian leader wanted to wait to make a decision until he had spoken to Mr. Abbas in person.

"The issue should be not an issue of personal power struggles but a national issue on how to build a system of government that will empower Palestinians to deal with external challenges," Ashrawi told reporters at Arafat's West Bank headquarters.

Mr. Abbas had been weakened by his wrangling with Arafat, the near-collapse of a U.S.-backed peace plan and his inability to improve the daily lives of Palestinians. The beleaguered prime minister, on the job only four months, told parliament earlier this week that it must either back him or strip him of his post, saying he is not clinging to the job and would just as soon step down.

Mr. Abbas had faced a vote of confidence in parliament in the coming days, and could easily lose the showdown.

He has been weakened by his power struggle with veteran leader Yasser Arafat, the near-collapse of a U.S.-backed peace plan and his inability to improve the daily lives of Palestinians.

Mr. Abbas had repeatedly threatened to resign, in an apparent attempt to pressure Yasser Arafat to hand over some of his powers. The threat carried considerable weight, because Arafat's international standing would slip even further were he to be seen as having engineered Abbas' removal.

Mr. Abbas and Mr. Arafat have been wrangling ever since Yasser Arafat appointed the prime minister under intense international pressure. The latest standoff is over control of the security forces. Mr. Abbas, backed by the United States, demands command over all men under arms, but Mr. Arafat refuses to relinquish control over four of the eight security branches.

Mr. Abbas said he would not clamp down on militants, as required by the U.S.-backed "road map" peace plan.

However, being in control of all the security forces would give him greater authority in renewed negotiations with Hamas, Islamic Jihad and renegades from his own Fatah movement.

Earlier this week, Mr. Abbas told parliament it must either back him or strip him of his post, saying he is not clinging to the job and would just as soon step down.

Parliament Speaker Ahmed Qureia initially opposed holding a confidence vote, saying he did not want the legislature to get dragged into the power struggle between the two leaders.

However, Mr. Qureia changed his mind on Friday and agreed to hold a vote. Parliament officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, had said there is growing dissatisfaction with Abbas among legislators, and that the showdown could no longer be avoided.

Mr. Abbas's resignation or ouster would be a serious blow to the road map, and Israel and the United States would be left without a Palestinian negotiating partner, at least temporarily.

Both nations have said they will not do business with Arafat, whom they consider an obstacle to peacemaking.

Israel's defense minister has threatened to expel Yasser Arafat. Israel has been held back by U.S. opposition and by warnings of its security chiefs that Mr. Arafat could do more harm abroad than isolated at his West Bank headquarters.

However, the threshold for taking action against Mr. Arafat could be lowered by Abbas's departure.

_______________________________________

As has been said here befroe, Mr. Arafat DOES NOT want peace. Until Arafat, Hamas, al Aqsa, et al. are gone, the Palestinian people and the Isrealis will continue to suffer through a war of Palestinian hatred.

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Reality Check from Palestine
by Jonas Tuesday, Sep. 09, 2003 at 2:11 PM

Reality Check from P...
baka-_woman_and_bulldozer.jpg, image/jpeg, 1632x1232

Marhaba. Just wanted to talk quickly about Israeli security. Just wanted to mention yet another time the IOF soldiers prevented a woman in labor from crossing the checkpoint a couple of days ago. I guess she was a terrorist huh? And the 2 women I tried to help across the gate in the apartheid wall in baca al-shaqira who havent seen their family in 3 months. they only live in the next village...both of which are in the west bank-- and cannot even cross several meters to see their loved ones. 3 months they have been trying. but they cannot cross because of israeli security. or let me mention the 4 palestinians that the soldiers held at the checkpoint of "sabotage" yesterday between nablus and asira for 18 hours without food or water, merely crossing through the hills to get to work. no weapons or anything... but detind in the hot sun with no food or water just because the soldiers felt like it... they actually laughed when they told us. i wish u could come here-- all of you skeptics. open air prisons-- shooting randomly at houses and destroyin homes and stores for no reasons- oh wait-- israeli security...

and i also want u to remember that when cnn and foxnews talks about the 2 suicide bombings today-- just remember how many women and children are dying in their own homes because they cannot leave due to the iof occupying their homes for stakeouts, unable to obtain food r water, or unable to leave their towns for medical treatment. keep that in mind.

or the 87 year old man who was forced to flee his hme in 48, relocating to talkurm, where he now has to relocate again because the soldiers are now demolishing his greenhouses and farmland for the secondary fence they are building-- yes secondary, fence inside a fence, stealing even more land! where is he supposed to go. how is he supposed to eat and support his family? i guess it doesnt matter because those palestinians are all terrorists, huh?

salaam


THE PICTURE SHOWN IS OF THE D9 BULLDOZER DEMOLISHING THE LAND OF THE OLD FARMER. THE WOMAN IN THE PICTURE IS HIS DAUGHTER, CONFUSED AND VERY ANXIOUS BECAUSE THEY HAVE NOWHERE ELSE TO GO. THIS HAS BEEN THEIR LAND FOR 50+ YEARS AND IS NOW BEING DESTROYED TO BUILD A WALL.

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bull
by reader Tuesday, Sep. 09, 2003 at 6:29 PM

Fucking bullshit. NO ONE can imagine how that poor woman feels. To see one's livelihood and years of hard work go down the drain is total bullshit.

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I think we can imagine
by Al Oxsa Wednesday, Sep. 17, 2003 at 7:00 AM

exactly how that poor poor Palestinian woman, who has been subject to the opression, squalor and war brought on by her own people. She is saying - "Oh you Jew pig with your American Caterpillar D-9 you should die a horrible death in your sleep or on a bus. I pray to Allah that the fleas of my donkey will rise up and infest your crotch area and you will get a nasty rash from your American whore wife. I curse you. I am going to screw the first Palestinian freedom fighter I can find so that I can have more children and send them to your local library to blow themselves up. Leave you Zionist scum so that we the peace loving Palestinians can live without you. Oh, and can you run over my neighbor's house before you leave. She said that my falafel was not fit to feed to goat and I cursed her. She is an infidel and listens to rap music. George Bush is satan !!! Thank you. Come again."

That probably pretty much sums it up.

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Jonas: Stop apologizing for Palestinian terror
by PghAltEnergy Friday, Sep. 19, 2003 at 9:36 PM

Jonas
Sorry, but you are absolutely wasting your time. ISM is a terrorist supporting movement whose members have been caught hiding, supporting, and cavorting with terrorists. I too am hoping and grasping for a peaceful soution to this conflict, but the fault of this conflict lies squarely on the palestinian people who, through their chosen leadership of the P.A have blown chance after chance to have their own homeland and only answered Israel's peaceful overtures (this was under Ehud Barak, the most liberal, left leaning leadership in Israel;s history) with massacres of Israeli little kids and civilians over and over and over again. THe fence is the only way to keep suicide bombers from blowing up Cafe's, Schools, public buses and other civlian targets which kill both Jews AND israeli arabs. YOur comment that you would do the same thing (strap on a bomb and blow up babies) if you were in the same position is sick. No one here has ever advocated such senseless and wanton vilolence targeting specifically children. Get a grip dude.

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Yassar Arafat
by Evil Murdering Old Bastard Thursday, Sep. 25, 2003 at 7:43 PM

Arafat DOES NOT want peace. Even the Eqyptians have found it possible to come out of the Arab neandrathal mentality and make peace with Isreal and the Isrealis are not blowing themselves up in downtown egypt. But not the Palestinians. Of course they will not rest until the last drop of Isreali blood drains into the burning sands of that strip of desert. The Isrealis have an OBLIGATION to themsleves to hunt down the murderous bastards that the PLO supports and who hide in resif=dential neighborhoods BECAUSE THEY DONT GIVE SHIT ABOUT THEIR OWN PEOPLE AND QUITE HONESTLY HOPE THAT THE ISREALIS COME IN THERE AND KILL A FEW INNOCENTS FOR THE POLITICAL GAIN OF THE PLO. SO all you hateful PLO loving kids can just do the world a favor and lie your ignorant asses down in front of a bulldozer. You would be a hereo. A Martyr. Arafat would praise you. Of course, Arafat will never come out of hiding behind the children of Palestinian as he condemns them to death and a life of turmoil (as long as he is lining his own pockets). Wake up you assholes. You want peace? Then start your freaking protests in GAZA and AGAINST Arafat. There is your most direct route to peace. But hey, you have to risk having Arafat's goons killing you and dragging your stupid ass through the streets so no one else even thinks about protesting the murdererwith the tablecloth on his head. And you idiots think he should have his own sovereign state and armed forces and airports so that he can continue murdering under the flag of a sovereign nation (and not as a terrorist group). In Gaza they may call you "hero" or "martyr" but the civilized world calls you "LOSERS" (and that is polite).

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