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Reflection
by Evan N Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 6:25 PM
evbo444@hotmail.com

I started this thread to provoke discussion amongst march participants on the tactivs used yesterday, how we could make them better, what we did well, and about some of the things that went on the media

I just want to see what people thought about yesterday, specifically the A) throwing of newspaper boxes which was immediately jumped upon and shown a few times on KDKA B) the whole incident reported about the car guy and other stuff open to discussion I.E. did this march do more harm than good in pissing off the population of pittsburgh? was the CD carried out appropriately? was the way some people behaved detrimental to our image? etc.

This is meant to only be a discussion of the tactics used in the organization and carrying out of M20
***note to hecklers*** we already know what you think of it, but we would love your opinion if you simply posted messages pertaining to the subject matter

add your comments


--
by -- Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 7:02 PM

I thought the blockade tactics used were fine. There was extensive discussion on indymedia prior to the event by people saying there must be respect for a diversity of tactics. If the goal is to non-violently disrupt I see little difference between a body and a newspaper box. note* I would object if things were being destroyed instead of moved.

I do object to the car incident. I understand the obvious anger people feel when seeing someone hit people but I don't think destroying the persons personal property is appropriate.

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hippies
by jeffrey Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 7:25 PM

i think your "peace rallies" would be fine if everyone was peaceful and everyone just stopped being annoying and trying to disrupt traffic, throw things, etc. go ahead and voice your opinions, but don't be idiots while doing it... these disruptions do nothing for your cause (the war has started and there is nothing that any of these protests can do to end it before iraqi regime has been removed) and actually only serve to worsen the situation for everyone all around by further dividing yourselves from the majority of the population (supporters of military action AND those who have not decided either way). it's comparable to how reverse descriminitation does nothing but increase the hostilities between people.

The point is... go ahead and stage your protests, but act in a civilized manner while you rally. Peace everywhere, all the time is wonderful and ideal, but sometimes there must be wars in order to spread freedom AND spawn more peace. You will not stop this war (it'll be over in a few weeks anyway), so try to save some save dignity and act like civilized, peaceful people yourselves.

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disruption is necessary
by Jon Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 7:31 PM

We must continue to use direct action. I think it would be more effective to target insitutions more directly involved in the war effort. I 100% tying up traffic in this situation, but feel like it shouldn't always be what we do. What about a blockade of SEI or something?

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Reflection
by Dave Z Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 7:40 PM

Hi Evan....

As an average Joe in Pittsburgh, who by the way was NOT there for the rally and was NOT inconvenienced by the rallys in any way, I just wanted to give you some feedback.

I am VERY MUCH a person who believes in saying what you feel.....simply BECAUSE I do this so much at work, I will probably NEVER go very far in my company...<grin>.....I am not one who likes to BS people...the truth is the way to go.

However, there is a difference between telling the truth and asking people to support you and trying to cram it down folks' throats.

Admitedly, I saw the rally only from TV coverage, and of course the most tasty bits make it to TV......We all know that......But unfortunately, a few protestors supplied the "tasty bits"...and that is working against what you are rallying for IMHO.

Do I think the cops were probably ab it rough with some folks?? Sure. Keep in mind that the police are as keyed up about the rally as the rallyers are.....They are very much on the defiensive and can overstep bounds easily......This is not right, by any means, but they are as human as you or I.....

It would be naive to suggest that all the protesters simply said "yes sir" and went on their way when the were given lawful orders to disperse.....offering ANY resistance to those orders instanatly puts police on gurad and they get caught up in the action.....Again, maybe not rightm, but human nature.

My suggestion is rally peacefully and do not cause hardship and inconvenience to the very same people you should be trying to win over (fellow Pittsburghers).....If your cause has a good case, that will come out and folks will come around...Ever try to force feed a child medicine ?? The harder you try, the more they fight and cry and resist. Settle them down, be reasonable and calm and it goes way more smoothly. I am not suggesting that we are the children and rallyers are the medicine <grin> but you get my point.....

Rallys are GOOD. Protests are GOOD. They get points across and let people know what is one your mind. But the minue tthe rally turns violent or when it causes problems, the rally becomes a "bad thing".

I would think it would be to your best interests to keep the rally as positive as possible and to try to convert those who differ in opinion peacefully.

Just my $.02.

DZ

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Creativity
by Bradford Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 7:46 PM

What is needed now is creativity. Marches are a good way to show the volume of opposition to the war, but they also cause frustration and anger to those who support it. Frustration and anger lead those who disagree with us to shut us out and ignore our views.

We must expose the truths behind this war, and that cannot be effectively accomplished by marching alone. Everyone knows the slogans "No Blood For Oil" and "Drop Bush Not Bombs" but these are vast oversimplifications of the complicated issues at hand.

The only way to change peoples' minds is to educate them. It is a fact that people will not listen if they feel threatened, and that is how they feel when they are confronted by large numbers of protestors who, to be honest, appear outside the boundaries of normality (a.k.a. the comfort zone of the conservative mind). More effective methods of information dissemination must be used.


Priorities of an education campaign should be to:

· incite legitimate distrust in and inspiring thoughtful viewing of corporate media
· indicate the lack of depth of administrative explanation and justification of the war;
· clarify the history of US-Iraqi relations;
· demonstrate US disregard for humanitarian concerns;
· and illuminate US true attitude towards the proliferation of WMD.


Furthermore, the use of sources that are widely trusted (such as articles and quotes from well known newspapers, television programs, and speeches by political figures) will improve the reception of these ideas, which are very hard to accept for those who are not accustomed to having distrust in the government.

Here are some tactics from Adbusters.org that we should consider implementing on a larger and more pervasive scale. (http://adbusters.org/creativeresistance/jamgallery/others/war_jamming.html)

Finally, the most effective means to gaining support is in our everyday actions. If we proclaim peace as our cause, we must live it. Naturally, anything that is not a peaceful demonstration will undermine our legitimacy. Spread the message of peace to friends. It is easy to become angry and give up on people who are comfortable being uninformed. The fact of the matter is, it is easy to accept lies when they are so easily accessible. It takes persistent, non-threatening rationality to make a believer.

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Ideas for future events
by Josh Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 7:51 PM
jatlas@andrew.cmu.edu

My suggestions for future marches are as follows:

1. We need to have speakers... people call us idiots so we need people to champion the protestors with bullhorns, that will serve two purposes. a) keep spirits up amongs the protestors and b) show the intelligence behind our purpose.

2. Start as several smaller marches (maybe one by each community) and try to meet up somehwere. If everyone is in one place and the cops know where that is they will control the direction of the march as well as be the only ones to see our message.

3. Have certain people from organizations such as the Thomas Merton Center and POG contact newscasters ahead of time for interviews so that coverage won't be slanted against us.

4. Pictures, pictures, pictures. Especially if the shit hits the fan and the cops come after us again. Theres one pic posted that shows 3 cops on a guy. 3 cops against one unarmed man. We need to get that out to the public.

Thats all for now.

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Josh
by -- Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 8:03 PM

The media was contacted beforehand. Press releases, calls, providing info, and more. TMC did tons of interviews the day of, but they can't control what message the corporate media puts out. We gave them easy access to people but they didn't cover things objectively. All the TV coverage I saw was footage of peaceful people getting beat up while the commentators talked about how protesters had abandoned peace.

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Time is now
by Hannah Short Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 8:17 PM

I think we need to continue as we have. Diversity of tactics has been our stronget asset. The police were bound to use violence and arrests against us at some point. They can't afford to let the movement develop to a point we could actually materially effect the war. Arrests are just a way to keep us out of the streets. Fear will always be our biggest deterent. See you on March 30th.

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Silence is Golden?
by Nathan J Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 8:45 PM

how about holding a silent vigil/rally of people spread out all over the city. of course we want to have strength in numbers, but what is the feasibility of having a 'Hands across Downtown' sort of thing. everyone holding hands in one long line of people on the sidewalks. and remain absolutely silent.
silence can be an effective scare tactic, too. and the single unbroken (save for crossing streets or somesuch) line of people will allow all the corporates and workers to get by without any problem.
cops want us on the sidewalks, then let's use the sidewalks to maximum advantage. and keep quiet the whole time, so as to defuse all anti-anti-war hotheads (we can talk quietly and intelligently with the coolheads)
just a thought, tell me what you think.

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RE: Silence is Golden
by Bradford Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 8:59 PM

I think that a silent vigil is a great idea. I think it would be great for our image and an effective way to spread the message of peace. Without causing bypassers to feel threatened, and thereby causing them to clam up.

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reason for arrest
by JB Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 10:04 PM

An earlier post... "think we need to continue as we have. Diversity of tactics has been our stronget asset. The police were bound to use violence and arrests against us at some point. They can't afford to let the movement develop to a point we could actually materially effect the war. Arrests are just a way to keep us out of the streets. Fear will always be our biggest deterent. See you on March 30th. "

Regardless of the merit of the demonstrations, it should be clear to everyone that these demonstrations will NOT have a material effect on this particular war, it is simply too late. Arrests will occur b/c the police, while occasionally abusing their power, also occasionally do their duty - and keeping civil order is one of them. Protests are a sign of an active public, and in general a good thing. However, when enough protesters are being illegaly disruptive, then some arrests will be made. If you don't want to be arrested, don't be disruptive, and stay clear of those who are being disruptive, as the cops will have a hard time determining the difference out of the crowd. If you do want to be arrested, then by all means be a jackass out there, but understand people are being arrested b/c they are breaking the law. If you were dumping recycling bins over in the street yelling about how you loved Bush and thought he was the second coming, you would still be arrested.

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Marching @ Night w/out plans
by Ben Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 10:18 PM
bdo2@pitt.edu 412-648-3437

As one of the 120+ demonstrators arrested for no reason, I'd like to throw in my two cents. I accept what happened to me as one of the frustrating outcomes that goes along with marching (I put up no fight whatsoever, worked to unify the group, get people to raise their hands in peace, ect.).

I feel that marching at night was a horrible idea. Once darkness fell, things got ugly. It all started after Station Square. I do think that stopping traffic is a good idea though. How about morning rush hour? Really effect the way money flows in this city to capture people's intentions and show that war does entail suffering. Also, with the economy already slugging, this will only speed up the process of Bush's poor fiscal planning falling to shit. Wouldn't you rather we bottom out now than when he's out of office?

Also, I think the proliferation of #'s for legal defense is crucial and also perhaps a teach-in on knowing your rights would be well served as well. After being detained for 23 hours, my story (which I'll be posting soon) is full of errors from the Pittsburgh police (and in brutal honest, a few of our own).

Hopefully I can find proper legal assistance over the next couple of days rather than having to deal with the worthless performance of the Public Defender.

That's all. Stay Strong

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cool
by Evan N Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 10:28 PM

good points i'm happy this thread hasnt turned into a flame fest like the others. I thought that the newspaper box moving was a bad idea. I agree that a box is the same as a person tying up traffic, but on the news now they can say "property destruction and violence" and show a picture of a bandanna'd dude tossing a "pulp" box. while yes it is no different to us, it is different to the media. it jsut gives them another thing that could have not happened to use against us.

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no excuses
by Nathan J Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 10:59 PM

the reasoning behind my earlier suggestion of forming a human chain across downtown was that if done properly, it would allow neither the police nor motorists ANY reason to come down on us, justified or not in their minds. i've found that in certain situations, passive resistance is more infuriating to those who object, because they have nothing to react to, except our presence, which is entirely legal.
please understand, of course, that i support a variety of tactics, and of each person's right to choose their own method of demonstration. i'm not trying to force anyone to sit there silently if they want to shout. but also keep in mind that the last thing we want to do is give the anti-protest contingent ANY ammunition. hehe..sorry, bad pun, considering the situation.
anyway, keep it real, keep it safe, and keep it peaceful.

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How was I arrested???
by Josh Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 11:54 PM

I and most of the people I was in jail with kept asking ourselves why we were in jail. People should know that the police literally trapped and arrested many of us for simply being there. My friend and I weren't damaging public property, yelling, chanting, or even as much as flashing a peace sign.
It's hard to disperse when police are beating people to the ground all around you. It's hard not to clear the side walk when there's no where to run.
My neutralist attidudes have changed a lot since last night. My only regret is that I didn't participate in any earlier peace protests. It's our obligation to history to make this war unpopular. We may not be ale to stop ths war, but we can send a message that not everyone supports W.
I'd like to thank all those contained in cells H-14, and H-15, and the activists who, as soon as I got out, offered me food and support. The made me realize that the war is worth protesting against, even going to jail for.

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Just a Thought
by Dickey Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 11:58 PM

First, the silent chain idea is a tremendous idea. We could call it something like "peace chain [a play on the cat stevens song]." It could be done for perhaps an hour or something, possibly w/ candles. If we wanted to, we could peacefully surround an entire building.
Second, i agree, any display of property damage done give us REAL peaceful demonstrators a bad rap and also alienates those of us w/in the movement [probably the majority] who want to obtain peace thru peaceful means. Civil disobedience is one thing, damaging another's property is a completely wrong approach [ex: bandannaed people tossing around newspaper boxes]. The corporate media [like it or not, they are there] will prey on this sort of behavior [note the fact that other peaceful protestors labored to replace the boxes, yet this good deed was not covered]. Which leads me into my next thought.
Third, far be it for me to criticise an individuals choice of attire, but the bandannas make people look like bandits or dangerous people. I understand some of you feel it will help imensely to quell the effects of pepper spray. Here's a thought, wear the bandannas on your head or in pockets until needed.

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Thoughts on M20
by Andrew Saturday, Mar. 22, 2003 at 12:42 AM
igglevideo@hotmail.com

After attending the march downtown on the 20th i was pretty dissapointed in the seemingly disorganized and extemporaneous nature of the march (and of course, the unreasonable response by the police). I was however, far more dissapointed with the mainstream news coverage of the overall peaceful rally. The media reported to no end about the few incidents of property damage caused by protestors, as well as the rowdy end of the protest, which they claim was due only to actions by the protestors themselves. What they failed to report on however, was the tactics by police which resulted in the large arrests, which on a few occasions, included ordering the protestors to disperse, then blocking off all points of exit needed to disperse.
Yet in all the various sources of local news I viewed, NOBODY reported on the mistakes by the police, and most of the TV stations made sure they had enough time to get their own anti-protest sentiments on the air. For a protest including mistakes by both marchers and police, it sure seems that the media could have been more fair and could have at least ignored their corporate obligations and reported on the story fairly. Good luck to the movement in the future, and if the protests stuck to their planned march plans, even unpermitted ones, then they would probably run much smoother in the future. Peace

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Silence is golden
by Theo Saturday, Mar. 22, 2003 at 2:02 AM
TheoK444@aol.com

I agree, nothing will piss off the pro-war faction more than when they don't have anything to be pissed off at us for. That alone is worth it to me.

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silent vigil...
by Erin Saturday, Mar. 22, 2003 at 8:58 AM

i think a large scale silent vigil would be extremely effective. There would be no reason for our oposition to get angry (as long as sidewalks were'nt complettely blocked), and it would help to maintain the fact that this is a peacefull movement. (not that i think that anyone involved in the movement has really altered this, although the media slants it that way) Just a large scale silent vigil would leave the media w/out a way to make it into something it's not.

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yeah
by Evan N Saturday, Mar. 22, 2003 at 10:27 AM

Silence is an awesome idea - a silent unpermitted march would be very cool. maybe a nightime one with candles? of course there would be lots of people with flashlights to point at the police if anyone starts getting arrested and stuff. I think the TMC would love that idea, as it combines their candle light vigl (and the crowd that attends them and not the rallys) and vice versa, ultimately creating a larger crowd.

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H17 and the Elite Eight
by Troy Shelley Saturday, Mar. 22, 2003 at 10:33 AM
axelfear@yahoo.com 412 422 6620

To all those who are bias to us b/c of the media:

The events of the other night were candy coated and worthless, coverage wise, to the real miscarriage of justice that happened there. People who were literally appeasing the police in riot gear were beaten down by the oppressive cops. There was NO FUCKING REASON things should not have been more peaceful, arrest-wise.
And FYI to all of you that think Black Bloc are simple-minded, destructive miscreants that deserved to be beaten:
The message is the same but the tactics are different. The "crimes" they commit are for reasons not unlike our own. They are also responsible for helping me and a few others hold the protest march together. Without them those of you that followed us into the E. Carson St. fiasco would have been arrested. So you should be thanking them for that , at least.
Love All
The Last one to be Released,
Troy Shelley

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Guy in car
by Theo Saturday, Mar. 22, 2003 at 11:39 AM
TheoK444@aol.com

Just a comment about the 'attack' on a motorist - this man deliberately tried to run several of us down. While i can't condone vandalizing his car as a response, i was pissed off enough to enjoy watching it done. I just want people to know that this particular act of 'vandalism' was very, very provoked.

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Slowdown for Peace
by Johnny Saturday, Mar. 22, 2003 at 12:15 PM
Mt. Washington

I have been thinking about a "Slowdown for Peace" campaign; meaning I will start taking my time when I am behind the wheel of my automobile. My plan is to drive about 5 miles an hour below the speed limit and sticking to the slow lane, which is legal. And has the possibility of causing unwanted traffic congestion if enough people join the campaign.

"Slowing down for Peace" is a simple way that I can exercise my support for the Anti-War movement every day while I'm commuting to work.

What do people think?

My only fear is road rage!

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Resistance
by Peh Saturday, Mar. 22, 2003 at 12:16 PM

These tatics are highly effective. We have all done the vigils, speak-ins, peaceful marches and demos. 1. They hardly received much coverage 2. Why should WE be peacful when THEY unleash the violence of the world's number one arms dealer? 3. The war is more than just these battles you see. this occupation will last anywhere from 3-10 years by the US Military's own estimates therefore we will continue for just as long if needed. 4. As Vietnam proved the war only stops WHEN THE WAR IS BROUGHT HOME. Therefore Resistance will continue.

Surrender is futile. We will march on

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don't interact with individuals
by nose Saturday, Mar. 22, 2003 at 2:02 PM

My only criticism but one that needs to be reinterated-don't be drawn into confrontations with individuals along a march route.

2)could we have a liitle route planning so we don't get boxed in at narrow spots, against walls and such?

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affinity groups?
by nose Saturday, Mar. 22, 2003 at 2:25 PM

Are affinity groups really deciding their comfortable leval of risk in advance,maintaining their attonomy,looking for exists and other tactical dicisions or are they loosing their identity in the larger march?
stay alert and aware.

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.
by Evan N Saturday, Mar. 22, 2003 at 3:23 PM

peh - Why should WE be peaceful? cause were a freakin peace movement! dont be a hypocrite. we are fighting against violence, and using violence only causes more. its time to question whether you really want peace or want to get on tv?

uhhh red predator is that a threat?

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i don't think....
by Erin Saturday, Mar. 22, 2003 at 3:36 PM

that just b/c a larger scale peace vigil is planned, that means a stop to marching, or even a stop to more radical tactics, but possibly a chance to get some "positive" media attention in light of recent events. I doubt it would nesacarily get any attention, but is it really not worth trying?

"Surrender is futile. We will march on "
a larger scale peace vigil (as in hundreds? if planned well?) is hardly a surrender, quite the contrary it would be giving them exactly waht they don't want. No reason to be mad.

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Why I was arrested????
by Ethan Pullman Saturday, Mar. 22, 2003 at 3:57 PM
pethan@hotmail.com 412 361 1572

Did I march? Yes. Was I peaceful? Absolutely. Was I on the Street? Only when crossing from side walk to side walk. Was I heading to my car at the end of the march? Yes. Did I fail to disburse? Evidently, not being able to ignore specific instructions of the police, which DID NOT include "disburse" is considered failure -- the only instruction I was given is to move back, keep moving forward, face the wall, put my hands behind my back, well you get the picture.

Did the police ask us to disburse? Not that I am aware of; in fact, the only thing that was audible from the police (aside from fowl mouths and ignorant shout backs) are orders to "keep moving". Once they succeeded in directing us to the exact point where it became opportune for them to mass arrest us, they came from all sides (3 with the wall of one building on the fourth side): the police in the back kept telling us to move forward; the police on the streets kept telling us to stay on the side walk; and the police in the front waving their sticks and telling us to move back.

Did I tell them that I was on my way to my car which was literally a block behind them? Yes, several times. Did they let me go to my car? Not in the least. They yeld louder, waved their sticks harder (if I'd moved one inch I'd been hit).

Moments later, I (and many others) was to the wall being pushed (with people being crushed below me and infront of me) and handcuffed.

Now remind me, why was I arrested? Let me see? Could my ethnicity and accent have anything to do with Police ignoring my effort to leave and go to my car?

hmmm... think about that one!

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have no idea?? Red Predator?
by What!? Saturday, Mar. 22, 2003 at 4:16 PM

We have no idea what is planned? YOU have no idea what we are capable of. Just this morning we (the larger we as in the WorldWideWe) shut down the propagandists web site of CNN.com at the same time as a mass demonstration outside of their studio in Atlanta. We had one simple request - to show the anti-war protests with the same depth, analysis and interviews as they give the warmongers.

I can happily report that late this afternoon, as of 3pm We Won. CNN showed taped footage from the million strong protest in London earlier today as well as live interviews from New York, Chicago and (gasp) outside their studios in Atlanta.


We are NOT hippies. We are far more clever and our techniques regardless of how abhorent YOU find them, effect change. We may have lost the battle to stop the war before it started but we have not lost the War to END the War.

Time and time again people the world over from Police, to Politicians, to Journalists to Scholars have commented that they did not know WE were capable of this. That the 'protest' was passé and that activism was strictly the domain of the 'loony left' . They have been 'Shocked and Awed' by the size and depth of our movement and use of technology.

The last few months have only proven never underestimate what individuals united for a common goal are capable of.

We may have lost the battle to stop the war before it started but we HAVE CHANGED the way the war IS BEING FOUGHT. -

The London Guardian Newspaper has made that clear in this article today, here- http://www.guardian.co.uk/antiwar/story/0,12809,919622,00.html


So whatever you have planned, come with it. We are stronger and more extensive than you. Look what we have done on the large scale, now imagine if we REALLY unleashed what we are capable of in this small city. Shall we turn our attention on KDKA.com? they would not know what hit them and neither would the like of you.

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getting arrested sucks
by Chris S Saturday, Mar. 22, 2003 at 4:55 PM

This has been a real eye opening experience for me but looking back on it there are things that I would have like to seen done differently. I think 99% of the people involved in M20's march have the right idea, but in talking to my fellow cellmates, I found that there are a few "anarchists" types who fell the need to visibly display their anger at the situation, and I think that's detrimental to our cause. I feel like we walked right into a trap set up by the police, and for that I feel stupid. I think in future we need to be more careful not to give them any reason what so ever to arrest us, so that should they decide to arrest us without just cause again, the only video footage will be of peaceful protesters being roughed up by police being caught in the act of abusing their authority. I didn't see the people moving news paper boxes but I did see the angry swarm around the the car that allegedly deliberatly hit a protester (I didn't witness the actual striking of the protester) and while I can understand the crowds reaction, I think in such inccidents we need to take a deep breath and remember that this person just screwed up bad, and the best thing we can do is not stoop to there level by engaging in the destrution of personal property. Just simply not allowing the person to leave by remaining swarmed around the car until the police arrived would have been the best thing to do in that situation. There are alot of misinformed people out there who could be won over to our side, but we need to remember that our point of view is in the minorty right now. The media and genral public will not support our cause if we give them any evidence at all of us deserving such punishments as Thrusday nights outcome. I'll admit I am ouraged by the police butality I witnessed, but anger is not conductive to clear thinking. We need to remember that our fight is not necessarily with the police and reguardless of how you feel about the police you will not win a physical confontation with them. I like the idea of a slient night march because it will get our point across in a purely positive way and if it pisses off the police by not giving them any reason to get pissed off, all the better. I know that we are smarter than they are, lets prove it next time.

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YOUR TACTICS DEMEAN YOUR MESSAGE
by James Quinn Saturday, Mar. 22, 2003 at 5:04 PM

Your tactics are irresponsible to say the least.

You have an important message. You have passionate opinions. But you act like petulant children. Please spare me all of the "we were oh so very polite, but the policeman beat me anyway." We all know that that is nothing but merd. Hell, take a look at your own website http://indypgh.org/news/2003/03/2095.php. You actively suppport this sort of behavior and you wonder why you are heckle. You wonder why people are not receptive to your cause? The actions that were undertaken in Shadyside were appalling ! These are private businesses. The employees there did not casue the war. But you went in ther, disrupted their business, vandalized their store (yes, and you can see it on the video. Your protesters knocking products off of shelves.) In the retail business the manager and assistant managers are responsble for their stores. You very well may have cost these people some real economic harm. Yet, they didn't start this war. And they can't stop it. But I doubt they find any reason to give credence to your cause.

The tactics you employed in these marches is excatly like that of the fraternity guys you met up with in Oakland, only you were more destructive and disrespectful. How can you complain about the frat boys or even call that a confrontation. They had an opinion, just like you do. They voiced it. In all of that video that you have here I did not see any of the fraternity boys hit anyone, throw anything in the streets, or knock anything out of anyone's hands. In fact, they had their own slogans, not unlike ours. They have an opinion, not unlike us. But you have allowed yourselves to be drawn to their level in expressing your opinion.

And why are you are all so worried about how people are heckling you and talking onthis website. I am afraid that we are taking ourselves far to seriously, and at the expense of our ability to engage in any discourse with those that have another view. Even some of your hecklers seem to have been receptive to your cause, but you never once tried to or did reach out to open that window of opprtunity to change a mind and heart. In other words, we are failing at communicating.

I read much of the posts of the past couple of days, and many on the peace movement side were actively advocated the bannishment of certain persons becasue they were using what some of you described as "abusive" language. Quite honestly, with the exception of one person who seemed to just want to type dirty words rather than say anything meaningful, the people that you seemed to want to ban were actually making some important and meanigful statements even if they were using some tongue in cheek rhetoric or otherwise attempting to lighten the debate. However, the actions you took in shadyside and the language that was used were truly offensive and abusive.

I mean how does it at all communicate the intelligent casue of peace to walk into a Starbucks screaming and repeating "F*$% Starbucks". All you do is offend people and certify your own ignorance. Yet, there was the "rally" that you apparently support, harassing people in private businesses.

I would think that you were in fact trespassing when you entered those businesses for the purposes of your rally. And each of those merchants would have been able to have you arrested. I see this in the video on your site and I truly have to questions whether you were all the saintly messengers of peace that you say you were when the police arrested all of you. These tactics do nothing to promote your agenda.

You must stop supporting such ant-social and anti-democrat activities in your rallies. Please also be honest. Your own notice telling people to come to the rally on THursday said that people shoudl be prepared to get arrested and that your tactics would be open to change based on opportunity (or some such equally adolescent statement). http://indypgh.org/news/2003/03/2454_comment.php#3097.

If you want people to respect your message, you must respect them. But you have not succeed in comunicating your message. You are not simply getting people upset, you are actively scaring them. I work with people that were afraid to stay in downtown on Friday when they heard there was going to be another rally. They were afraid they would be in the middle of a repeat of Thursday. I work downtown. I saw what was going on first hand as an observer. I was one of the people who would have supported you if you were having a truly respectful and peaceful rally. But I was scared. I saw how protesters were running through the streets with little or no apparent purpsoe other than to disrupt the lives of peaceful people of Pittsburgh. I saw the hate and anger in the faces of many of the ralliers, and I was certain that they were going to be very aggressive with anyone that they had the opportunity to confront. I saw some of the ralliers screaming their slogans at the drivers and passengers in the cars as they ran out in front of the cars. I saw them follow the cars and continue screaming at them.

I was actually very surprised that the marchers were not arrested sooner. I was ashamed for each of you. I was ashamed for the Merton Center, which I think has a noble agenda. I was afraid that the Merton Center had been coopted by people who have their own political agenda which might be a basic hatred for our President or even anarchy, neither of which have anyting at all to do with the casue of peace. (All Presidents have their supporters and detractors, and all Presidents have to take on the distateful task of waging war. Please focuas onthe casue of peace and not the person in the office.)

Read the postings of the self-proclaimed peacemarchers. Many of these posting have little to do with the agenda of peace, and more to do with their own personal frustration with an organized society or a capitalist economy. If you want to promote your cause you must recognize that there are other VALID points of view. It is only when you actually practice what your seek from others that they can respet you. NOw you have left our cause terribly, maybe irreparably, damaged. We have our own crisis of credibility. Do you not think that the videos of the protesters causing property damage will not be shown ad nauseam during hte next presidential campaign. I even saw one post on your BB that had a link to an article showing "peace marchers" destroying a 9-11 memorial that residents of a community had erected and maintained on theri own. This practically made me cry. And then to see that video of the Shadyside events and to think that IMC promotes or supports that activity. Shameful.

By the way, many of the marchers in tha video looked like they shoudl have been in school. I don't deny them the right to form their own opinion, but please respect the cause and don't see it as an outlet for adolescent angst or an excuse to cut class.

All and all, I think the confrontational tactics demean our cause, rob you of any credibility, demonstrate a lack of intellect (in fact it makes you look like the fraternity boys that you are complaining about on another page), and will do nothing mor than marginalize your movement. Please stop it. Please try to be responsible citizens of your community. Polluting and litter has NOTHING to do with peace http://indypgh.org/news/2003/03/2160.php.

If you want respect, show respect. If you want peace, live peace. What I saw was disrespect, anger and hate.

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notes on an America in which walking down the street is a crime
by A. Saturday, Mar. 22, 2003 at 7:07 PM

I want to start by thanking all of you that have posted messages which will hopefully help future protests to be less violent and loud. I agree that quieter and better organized protests will help to alleviate problems both with the public and the police. I also agree that those who were breaking that law should suffer the consequences of doing so.

As a protester who was arrested, however, I must say that this whole ordeal has been quite a shock. The group of people that I was with at the time of my arrest were calm and quiet. Most of us, in fact, were trying to leave when a group of twenty or so police officers came running toward us with billy clubs. When the officer in front of me began pushing me and telling me to back up, I calmly informed him that I was, in fact, trying to leave. I was then shoved backwards until I was pushed against a wall, cuffed and thrown into the patty wagon. While the Post Gazzette reported that we were told to disperse several times, we were not. Many of us would have dispersed if we were told to. Instead, we were corralled and separated into smaller groups to make us easier to arrest. I, along with many of those arrested, had walked along the sidewalk the entire time. I, along with most of those who were arrested, were compliant with the police the whole time. So while your suggestions about having a quieter, better organized protest may help to win the public opinion poll, in George Bush's America, it is possible to be arrested and detained for walking down the sidewalk and voicing your opinion. Until Thursday night, I though those were my rights as an American. Now, I just know how to be better prepared for the next time I plan on assembling in a large group. So the next time you are walking down the sidewalk with a large group of people, you might want to keep some of the following in mind:

1) Keep a valid form of identification on your body at all times. Bags and purses are subject to confiscation. They will be taken to a remote location. Not having identification will cause you to be detained for 30 hours as opposed to 22.

2) Let loved ones know where you are at all times. When they don't hear from you, they can assume that you are in jail. Just remember, you don't actually get to make your phone call until after you see the magistrate. That may be as much as 72 hours after your arrest.

3) Eat a healthy, well-balanced meal before assembling. Prison food isn't particularly nutritious. There is no vegetarian meal plan.

4) Only speak to your arresting officer in calm, soothing tones. Do not question him or her. If you do, you may be subject to police brutality not excluding bashing your head against a wall, tear gassing you directly in your eyes or mouth, throwing you to the ground, dragging you, or just generally berating you.

5) Stay at home if you have a medical condition. Your medical problems including diabetes, high blood pressure, and bleeding ulcers will be ignored for up to 18 hours, at which time you may be informed that you should have been hospitalized upon your arrest.

6) Do not, under any circumstances, think that you will be given fair warning before you are arrested. I made that mistake, and I don't wish the Allegheny County Jail upon any other law-abiding citizens.

7) Don't regret getting arrested. Hopefully, all charges will be thrown out, and you can live with the knowledge that what you think are your rights as an American can be violated at any time.

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threats will not be tolerated
by pgh imc editorial Saturday, Mar. 22, 2003 at 7:30 PM
info@indypgh.org

Red Predator: Your comments have been hidden because they provide no information other than direct threats. The Pittsburgh IMC will not tolerate this type of post.

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Some of us are hippies, but
by Dickey Saturday, Mar. 22, 2003 at 7:47 PM

Looks like a good turnout to day across the nation, even according to the "corporate" media estimates. Peaceful protests ensued in San Fran. NYC had a grate turn out-200k strong according to conservative estimates w/ only 83 arrests, that's .042% of the people. I wonder what exact tactics they used and why our numbers of arrestees was so high.
The whole movement, and i mean the WHOLE movement, including all states; alaska and hawaii needs to make a pilgrimage to dc [whenever the administration comes out of hiding]. How can we get something like this together? My father said he was at the rally at the pond and it was incredible [you know, the one in forrest gump]. We need to do it. Perhaps on a weekend; not too much of a drive from here.
Anyway, one scholar once said "if we all think really hard, maybe we can stop this war." So lets do it.
Love.

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"But you act like petulant children...."
by It goes on... Saturday, Mar. 22, 2003 at 8:05 PM

"But you act like petulant children...."

I seem to remember a similar quote used from an english nobleman used to describe american revolutionaries aroud the time of the revolutonary war....


Regardless. We want our country back. No surrender. No retreate, we get out in the street and vote with out feet.

Let's Roll

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Good and Bad
by Sam Saturday, Mar. 22, 2003 at 11:04 PM

I think unpermitted marches themselves are great, powerful things.

I'm not a big fan of pushing over newspaper bins or attacking passing cars. I think that direct action ought to be thoroughly planned and targeted.

Still, it's not really a big deal to me that people do these things. Yes, the media will seize on it to make us look bad. But that's a non-issue. The media will make us look bad regardless of what happens. I don't think these tactics are the most effective, but I don't think allowing them to occur does damage to the movement. It's nothing I'd lose sleep over.

We need to take a step back for a minute and realize something: M20 represented a turning point. Pittsburgh's progressive community has experienced unprecedented growth, success, and unity over the past year or so. To some degree, we are beginning to threaten the status quo.

It was really only a matter of time until something like this happened. We've had our unpermitted marches and such relatively free of aggressive interference for a while. Now they've decided to crack down.

We cannot let this great thing that so many have worked so hard to build go to waste. We need to get together and seriously consider how to better prepare for the future.

For one, we need better recon. Bike scouts equipped with walkie-talkies or cell phones would be a good idea.

We need to encourage people to go to direct action trainings. We need to educate people about the basics: stick together, don't ever stop, etc.

We need to introduce people to the concept of a security culture, and also to anti-oppression training (I heard more heterosexist remarks that I would've liked last night).

We also need to get and train many more medics and legal observers.

We need to keep getting more militant, but at the same time, raise our level of security and include those who aren't (yet) into more militant actions.

I think that we should balance militant events with less militant events. Have a permitted march one week, an unpermitted one the next. At the same time, people should start considering more militant actions outside the context of larger events. Don't just try to block the road with an unpermitted march. Make a human chain and do it with a small group on a day when there's nothing else going on. Occupy buildings. Drop banners. Counter military recruiters with anti-recruitment leaflets (War Resisters League has a lot of good ones). Barge in on a ROTC class. If your co-workers or fellow students are sympathetic to the cause, organize a short strike, slowdown, or walkout (especially if you're *not* in a union -- that will really throw 'em for a loop). These independent actions need to gradually increase in both militancy and frequency.

Lastly, it needs to be made clear that you can never, ever trust the cops.

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jeffrey
by Sam Saturday, Mar. 22, 2003 at 11:11 PM

If you think not being able to get where you want to go because of protestors is inconvenient, just imagine how inconvenient it must be to not be able to leave your house because there are bombs dropping everywhere outside.

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"Peace" Movement
by Sam Saturday, Mar. 22, 2003 at 11:18 PM

Not all of us are fighting against violence per se, Evan. I'm certainly not. I'm fighting against imperialist aggression and unnecessary violence. But people have a right to self-defense. And I feel that necessarily violent social revolution is also justified (of course, we're nowhere near that point, so unprovoked violence against gov't targets is stupid and useless right now, and will be for hte foreseeable future).

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Note to Jim Quinn
by Sam Saturday, Mar. 22, 2003 at 11:30 PM

If we were really worried about the hecklers, we'd ban them. We won't, because we believe in the free exchange of ideas -- even asinine ideas. That's a lot more than I can say for conservative forums like Free Republic, where even conservatives who aren't sufficiently incapable of independent thought are censored.

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More notes to Jim Quinn
by Sam Saturday, Mar. 22, 2003 at 11:41 PM

We never said we were polite. But rudeness doesn't give a police officer the right to knock someone unconscious or beat his/her face into the asphalt.

And you speak as if everyone in the protest took part in the actions at Starbucks and the Gap. That's just not the case -- only a handful did.

In any case, at least from the point of view of those who did participate in those actions (including myself), war is a symptom of capitalism. It is the iron fist that makes way for the invisible hand. Therefore, there is a direct connection between these companies -- notorious abusers of Third World labor -- and the war on Iraq.

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SAM
by jeffrey Sunday, Mar. 23, 2003 at 11:56 AM

oh ok then... let's just stop the war and let the saddam and sons regime continue their atrocities against their people... and continue trying to dominate the region and start wars with their other neighboring countries like they've done enough times before... this war will not last long... and will be worth the unfortunate sacrafices and inconveniences that are occuring right now...

you all can talk about how awful war is and how it kills innocent civilians, etc... but you never want to address the atrocities and murdering and torture that occurs there because of the regime in place there that we are going to remove... so lets remove the regime now and try to restore some normalcy, peace, and civilization to the country... or we could follow your anti-war suggestions and let this dictator and his goons continue to do whatever they want and kill the civilians on their own (throw them into plastic shredders, etc.) with no relief in sight from this type of oppression... and, of course, face the possibility that some sort of horrific weapon somehow make it's way into terrorist hands to kill thousands upon thousands of the people you're so concerned about saving (innocent civilians)...

you all need to wake up to reality and realize that the death and destruction caused by leaving this regime alone can easily far outweight the death and destruction that could and would come from removing it...

it's very very unfortunate the way the world works... but it's reality...

there will always be evil people... and if we want to keep this world peaceful and civilized, then we will have to have wars to keep them in check or get rid of them to avoid the horrible and evil things they would love to do to people all over the place...

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SAM again
by jeffrey Sunday, Mar. 23, 2003 at 12:32 PM

if you don't like capitalism, then get out of the country... cause this would be hell for you, wouldn't, it? living in the country that is the heart of capitalism itself... i don't understand why there are so many people who hate so many things about the US, but they continue to live here and enjoy the fruits of our society... the freedom, the opportunity... it really makes you quite the hypocrit...

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Love it or leave it?
by Sam Sunday, Mar. 23, 2003 at 1:58 PM

The point of trying to have a democratic society is that you're supposed to be able to voice your opinion, and to change it if you don't like it. If you don't like it, perhaps *you* should move to another country.

Of course, in practice, expression is only as free as those who own the media of expression want it to be. And historically, even speech in public forums has been repressed when the status quo is threatened. We saw it when those who opposed WWI were imprisoned. We saw it during the Red Scare. And today, with the PATRIOT Act and such, we're seeing it again.

Besides, there are no socialist countries in the world today. And if there were, then I wouldn't have to leave -- because socialism is necessarily international. Cuba and North Korea are state-capitalist. There are still countries with remnants of feudalism, slave societies, and even primitive communist societies. There are no socialist countries.

5 percent of the population controls 50 percent of the world's resources. The average CEO makes 500 times that of the average worker. Real wages have been falling snce 1973. The minimum wage is 2/3 of what it was then. 75 million people are now without health insurance. Millions more are stuck with inadequate HMOs. Inner city schools are crumbling and overcrowded. Higher education is becoming increasingly unaffordable. The average American family is around $30,000 in debt. Since 2000, most Third World wokers make less than the internationally-recognized subsistence rate of $1/day. Minorities are practically no better off than they were 30 years ago, and are disproportionately represented in the prison population. Indeed, the prison industry is booming, providing cheap labor for big business contractors. Women still encounter a glass ceiling, making 2/3 of what their male colleagues do. American jobs -- now even white-collar jobs -- are getting shipped overseas. Adjusted for the cost of housing and healthcare, around a fifth to a quarter of Americans live in poverty. Yet the social safety net has been being shredded for the last 30 years, aid for education keeps getting cut, affirmative action is gradually being done away with, and now they want to privatize Social Security, Medicare, and even education. Is this the picture of "opportunity"?

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Protesting FAQ
by Ben Sunday, Mar. 23, 2003 at 2:54 PM
bdo2@pitt.edu

would it possible for Pitt-IMC to set up a FAQ for people interested in participating in protests explaining well....everything that can happen.

included would be a list of items to bring a long with you to protest (small ammount of food, bandana in case of tear gas/pepper spray, small ammount of cash, drivers license (!), ect.)

also, it could discuss probable legal situations in case you are detained.

just an idea.

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chemical factory found
by kurtosis Sunday, Mar. 23, 2003 at 5:22 PM

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/PrinterFull&cid=1048389497622

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re: what?
by red predator Sunday, Mar. 23, 2003 at 5:47 PM

how about arrest and indefinite [permanent] internment? how about being charged with the Sedition Act and the Espionage Act as an enemy combatant? you may think that these acts don't apply to you. HA HA HA HA HA RP

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Things to Know
by Dickey Sunday, Mar. 23, 2003 at 6:01 PM

redpred:
Perhaps you have heard of the writ of habeas corpus. Something that, despite all of Ashcroft's efforts is still in existence.

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remember saddam's atrocities
by reality Sunday, Mar. 23, 2003 at 6:38 PM

http://www.fas.org/news/iraq/2000/02/iraq99.htm

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opinions are a crime
by Wayne Curry Sunday, Mar. 23, 2003 at 8:13 PM

The fact is a large majority of us out there on Thursday night did not deserve to be arrested. Arrest those one the streets as theyre on the streets. Arrest those breaking things as they break them. The fact is I was on the sidewalk the whole time and was only there as the independent media. Furthermore the way we were treated upon the arrests and inside the jail was uncivil and unjust. We were treated with a bias like communists during the red-scare or witchs during the salem witch hunts. We are not the terrorists here. Last time I checked it was legal to peacefully speak your mind in the US. Looks like times are changing.

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have no idea? red predator?
by red predator Sunday, Mar. 23, 2003 at 10:05 PM

thanks WHAT. now I have evidence in writing of your intent to cause harm. you're much too easy to fool. the FBI can track you through your contact with indymedia. signing off. RED PREDATOR

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Exactly, Wayne
by Sam Monday, Mar. 24, 2003 at 10:48 AM

There was very little legal basis for mass arrest, because:

1. According to a reliable source, police essentially agreed to let us go ahead with our unpermitted march as long as there was no vandalism and no stopping in the middle of the street. Such informal agreements are common at protests. The fact that the police went 3 hours without even telling anyone to disperse further validated the demonstators' reasonable assumption of safety from arrest. The failure of police to respect this agreement constitutes entrapment.

2. At no point did people deliberately stop in the middle of the street with the intent of immobilizing traffic.

3. There were no clear-cut cases of vandalism ("the willful or malicious destruction or defacement of property"). The license plate of a passing car was bent by protestors, *but only after* the driver tried to run over them. This should at the very least be considered a mitigating circumstance. And the police had at least as much responsibility to apprehend the driver as those who defaced the license plate.

4. Someone did push over a a newspaper bin. However, the bin was not damaged. This person was chastised by nearby protestors. This is criminal mischief at most, and collective punishment was in no way warranted.

5. It's very telling that the cops didn't do anything until after nightfall, when all the TV cameras were gone.

6. The police constantly provoked demonstrators. Instances are too numerous to recount. According to several reliable sources, they discussed among themselves ways to provoke arrests for close to an hour.

7. Agents provocateurs urged protestors to act against police orders.

8. I never heard any order to disperse. Others told me that they did, but only when everyone was already surrounded by police.

9. When I got arrested with some 120 others at William Penn Place, I was less than a block away from my car. I'm not terribly familiar with downtown, so I had no choice but to follow the rest of the protestors until I got to where my car was parked. I'm sure that at least some others were also just trying to find their way back to a place where they could safely get home.

10. The police ordered us to get on the sidewalk. It is my understanding that the police charged us not for blocking the road, but for blocking the sidewalk. Yet I'm sure we would have let pass any other pedestrians; and besides, with that many people, how could you *not* clog up the street to some degree?

Essentially, the cops ordered us to block the sidewalk, then arrested us for blocking the sidewalk.

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chants
by v Monday, Mar. 24, 2003 at 11:48 AM

i think in the future, we should watch what we chant.....certain chants only weaken our cause

examples

1. move pigs, get out the way (funny....but only going to lead to arrests)

2. who's streets? our streets (as funny as it was to hear "who's holding cell? our holding cell!!" while in jail, this one again only works to piss off cops and doesn't do much for the cause)

3. this is what democracy looks like (again, sort of, but depending on your slant it's also what a coup looks like)

let's try and keep things circulating around the war

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Sam -- 911
by Dave Z Monday, Mar. 24, 2003 at 12:06 PM

"If you think not being able to get where you want to go because of protestors is inconvenient, just imagine how inconvenient it must be to not be able to leave your house because there are bombs dropping everywhere outside. "

I DID feel that feeling....September 11, 2001, at about 10 am...when the 3rd plane went down in our backyard.....None of us knew what was next....

...or did you forget that day??

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Love it or leave it..
by Dave Z Monday, Mar. 24, 2003 at 12:12 PM

"The point of trying to have a democratic society is that you're supposed to be able to voice your opinion, and to change it if you don't like it. If you don't like it, perhaps *you* should move to another country. "

Yes....we all have the right to voice our opinion...but not at the expense of others......

Period.

By the way you folks are twisting it, I shoudl have the right to smack around a protestor as much as he has the right to destroy my property or smack me around....

See my point??

Mutual respect for each others opinions and the respectful voicing of said opinions.

Saying "F*ck Starbucks" and throwing around paper machines or beating up on a commuters ride is NOT covered in the "respecful exchange of opinions" theory.

DZ

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thoughts on the anti-war protests
by zack furness Monday, Mar. 24, 2003 at 12:12 PM

hi there,

following some of the last few comments, i think it's important to point out that there are LOTS of people who have been participating in Pittsburgh peace events who have some legitimate grievances with how things have been proceeding. i have found lots of the comments to be insightful because they point to a number of unresolved issues that challenge the effectiveness of pittsburgh peace protests.

despite the fact that i am a biker, anarchist, punk, graduate student, and teacher, i have been thoroughly frustrated with the actions of certain people at these events. while it's not expected that everyone at an event must act in a uniform manner, there are expectations that i have of other people at a protest. first and foremost, if you want to protest the Gap and sweatshop labor, then organize a protest for it. similarly, if you want to organize a protest against cars, go to a critical mass event, or plan a protest against automobiles. when people harass motorists, shout slogans at SUV drivers, and disturb businesses during a march, they make it much easier for police to justify their actions, and more importantly, the meaning behind these messages is NOT being communicated to people. before i get a mini-lecture about the interconnections of various socioeconomic problems from some political newbie on the next thread, please understand that there are many of us who are highly aware of the links between capitalism, corporations, car culture, the police, and the war. despite these connections, there is a time and a place for appropriate actions. it's totally naive to think that shouting at drivers will somehow make them rethink their position about owning a car, similarly, it's naive to think that disorderly behavior at a peace rally (regardless of how insignificant the action) will not bring more negative attention from the police. i agree with dan kyle's statement that pittsburgh is unique because we use a combination of tactics in our protests, but i also think it's fair for people to express their displeasure when a handful of egotistical children use the protests as a forum for their own personal political agenda. nobody gives a shit if you're an anarchosyndicalist, a conservative businesswoman, or a communist...the point of the protest is to bring people together in a message of peace. i have grown extremely tired of people showing up to these events in some feeble effort to act out a scene from the Seattle WTO protests, complete with facial bandanas and gasmasks. despite the fact that i sing in a punk band and have lots of friends in the punk community, the sight of a dirty kid dressed in all black with 4 bandanas tied around his face, shouting in the face of SUV drivers does not send a peaceful message to people in the community. furthermore, it doesn't communicate a goddamn thing to anybody else, other than reaffirming their opinions that punk-looking people dress funny and shout loudly.

i'm not telling people how to dress, or how to behave when you are in your house, or at a show......but have some respect for the fact that mass media has the ability to present the protest in any manner they see fit. as individuals such as martin luther king, saul alinsky, ceasar chavez, and angela davis have shown, the media can be a powerful tool when it is used in the right way. why don't we try to use this to our advantage and take some of the following things into consideration:
-people expect protestors to look like punks and hippies. perhaps it would be a good idea to have parents, older folks, and other straight looking people leading the way during the next march. peace protests are acts of symbolism that attempt to get others to change their mind about war. if we recognize the fact that people have a stereotyped view of what protestors look and act like (young, dreadlocked, long hair, tattoos, etc.) then we should try to disrupt that image by having older folks, families, and anti-war veterens leading the way. this sends a symbolic message to people in the community that "regular folks" are concerned about the war. this sort of strategy makes it more difficult for the media to portray protestors in a stereotypical manner. i am not suggesting that people cut their hair, or that people like myself should cover our tattoos. such suggestions would be absurd. what i am suggesting is that when you are dealing with a symbolic action, appearances do play a role in the way that the public perceives the event. for this reason, when all the dress-up revolutionaries cover their faces in an attempt to look like some hybrid between old school cowboys and the Zapatistas, they must realize that many people in the public are scared by this imagery. as a result, this can send a negative message to the public, and give the impression that the event is being led by "radicals." i'll be the first to admit that encouraging "radical looking" people to not lead the march is conforming to societal standards of dress/appearance and elite norms, but when we are trying to persuade people in the general public of our views, we must acknowledge the connotations that people attach to appearances. if people have problems with this idea, they should consider what is more important, trying to send the most powerful message we can to the public, or using protests as a revolutionary fashion show. on a more cynical note, and this is my own personal opinion, there is no reason why anyone should hide their face at a protest. people should be proud to be seen exercising their civil liberties and speaking out against injustice, rather than hiding their identity behind a makeshift mask.

-in keeping with the notion that peace protests are symbolic acts, i think it is an incredibly irresponsible idea to organize protests at the federal building, especially during rush hour. i understand the desire to shut down the federal building and send a message to the federal government, but with the passing of the Patriot acts, federal agents and police have the ability to SEVERELY crack down on individuals who pose a clear and present threat to federal institutions. while everyone involved knows that peaceful protestors are not a threat to public safety, this is not the view of the federal government. attempting to shut down federal institutions is an extremely risky idea, and it puts people in danger of being arrested and made examples of----namely, by utilizing aspects of the Patriot acts in order to charge people with more severe charges, such as conspiracy to commit a terrorist act, conspiracy to start a riot, trespassing on federal property, and the list goes on and on. while this may not a concern to a lot of people out there, i think it is irresponsible to put people in a situation in which they are at the mercy of a police force and juridical system that has been greatly enhanced by the Patriot acts. in terms of the media, protests at federal facilities can easily be construed as threats to public safety, and reporters are more prone to focus on this aspect during their coverage---sending out the message that there are threats to federal employees and facilities during a state of High terrorist alerts. i have emphasized the fact that peace protests are symbolic because nobody expects that the president is going to get on national TV and say, "people of the united states, i have just heard that there was a protest in downtown pittsburgh against the war, and for this reason we are stopping all operation in Iraq." the reason we protest is to send a message to the public in order to try to build a stronger movement. if we organize people to protest at federal institutions and expect the police not to utilize the Patriot acts against us, then we are naive as we are careless.
Furthermore, the idea that stopping traffic will somehow jolt people out of their war-soaked, consumer consciousness is giving ourselves a little too much credit, and not paying enough attention to the lack of communication taking place. i am sympathetic to the idea that we can't let people think that it is "business as usual," but people are NOT going to be persuaded to our side when we turn the situation into an immediate battle of Us vs. Them. the attitude i have heard thus far is that a few minutes of traffic is nothing compared to the loss of life taking place in Iraq. in other words, the people driving home are immediately on the WRONG side of the issue, and WE need to tell them what the real deal is. it is a big assumption to suggest that everyone driving home is automatically a war supporter, and this antagonism is fueled by people who want to use the peace rally as a forum against car culture. how about having some solidarity with the people driving home from their shitty jobs? instead of shouting in their face and causing traffic and frustration downtown, maybe we should make people small care packages to pass out to people in traffic. we could fill them with candy and write a note like this:

"We sympathize with the fact that you have probably had a tough day at work, and we want to let you know that there are thousands of people in Pittsburgh who are against the war in Iraq. We are trying to spread a message of peace and we encourage you to learn more about the situation in Iraq, and to talk with peace activists in order to learn more about what they represent. Thanks for your time and enjoy the candy."

How could people refuse?? I know that this is only example of what could be done instead of shutting down traffic, but at least it's an idea that doesn't alienate people downtown, encourage the use of police violence, and make protestors look exactly like their slogan shouting conservative opponents.

if people want to continue gathering at the federal builiding, you are putting your own safety and the safety of those around you in jeapordy. being arrested without the conscious intent of breaking an unjust law is not an act of civil disobedience....it's just a stupid way to give the cops extra money in fines, the chance to slap protestors around, and the opportunity to allow peaceful folks to be brought up on federal conspiracy charges. i understand that people who were arrested the other day were not doing anything wrong, but what i am suggesting is that planning to shut down a federal institution is not is simple as it may seem, and it greatly increases the chance that people will be arrested without just cause. i know this doesn't sit well with some people, but for those of you that want to rot in jail as a martyr, go right ahead. avoiding jail whenever possible seems to be a smart idea, and future planning for peace events should take this sentiment into consideration. what not have rallies in oakland? in the park?
aside from the sense of personal (some would argue egotistical) satisfaction that comes along with protesting a federal building, what will it actually achieve? the best case scenario is that we disrupt them for a few hours. the worst case scenario is that people get the shit kicked out of them by police, and potentially brought up on charges that are more stringent than those faced by protestors at any other time in recent US history.

my two main point are as follows:
1) it's important to consider how we are representing ourselves to the public, and we should do everything in our power to appeal to the masses of Pittsburghers who are on-the-fence about the war. Pittsburgh is a pretty conservative city, and it might be useful to play to this factor and put a attach a more conservative face to the peace efforts. if this offends people who want to wear their punkest outfit out to the protests, replete with pseudo-cowboy bandanas and black flags, then your attachment to your appearance is as obsessive as the yuppies you love to hate. in addition, we must stay focused on the issue at hand and avoid meaningless and impotent attacks on corporate chain stores and automobile drivers while we are marching for peace. these are important issues, but they deserve their own protest/march.

2) attempting to shut down federal facilities is extremely dangerous, and with the advent of the Patriot acts, could potentially be followed by federal charges related to terrorism (or the conspiracy to committ terrorist acts). organizers should consider different venues for protests despite the fact that the federal builiding is an obvious choice for symbolic dissent. i firmly believe that protests in another site will draw more people out to the events, and will spread a more positive message about the peace movement. in addition, protests in another area will dramatically lessen the ability for police to utilize the patriot acts in prosecuting protestors who are arrested, and it will likely cut down on the number of folks arrested in the first place. finally, blocking traffic downtown at rush hour does not communicate a clear message to the public, it gives people downtown an excuse to take an anti-protest stance (which then spreads through stories at work, and those written in the newspaper), and ultimately it puts people in danger of getting hit by cars (which would definitely result in a riot).

i firmly believe that people should be protesting this war and i also believe in the power of protest to change public opinion, governmental policy, and corporate activities. However, there are ways in which we can organize ourselves that will take the fuel away from those who oppose us. If we want to stop the war, this is the challenge we must face.

thanks to everyone who contributes to independent media and anyone who read this long winded message,

-zack-

add your comments


Love it, but change it
by Todd Monday, Mar. 24, 2003 at 12:30 PM

This is directed to Dave Z and the others of his ilk:

First, I am NOT in favor of violence of any sort - by militarys, by terrorists, by police, or by protestors. I would say there were maybe 10 protestors, at most, who did any kind of damage to property or vehicles - some retaliated against drivers who gave the impression they were going to run over the protestors.

Second, I am very sick, sick, sick and tired, tired, tired of hearing this "love it or leave it" crap from you overzealous, patriotic, jingoistic people. I happen to love it, that's the reason myself and so many others are trying to CHANGE it. I think I have the right to ask YOU people to leave it; you who would give up your personal liberties and freedoms so quickly all in the name of "homeland security." You're the same people who rail against Democrats when they want to limit gun ownership or defend abortion - you say they are "trying to take away your freedoms" when they go after something you care about. Well, please tell me what the difference is between that and what is going on now? How can you be so blind and march in lockstep when so many personal freedoms are being taken away by this administration?

War is NEVER the answer. The industrial world has worked hard to keep peace over the past 50 years - Europe has seen enough wars, that's why those countries are so against this action. Today Iraq - who next? Do we just go into any country whose regimes or leaderships we disagree with? Is that the litmus test we now use in determining our foreign policy? If it is, I can't think of a single thing a liberal could do that would have so many dire implications than this indiscriminate policy of invading those who "oppose our viewpoint." Hell, that would mean we'd be invading 200+ countries right now. Do you condone that???

I was attacked by the police on Thursday night, and arrested for listening and adhering to their demands. When they wanted me off the street and on the sidewalk, I got on the sidewalk. When they asked us to disperse, I began to disperse - however, a policeman PULLED ME BACK, threw me against the wall, and arrested me. Now, how American is that? Where is the justice there? Mind you, I had not initiated any violence or vandalism - in fact, just a few minutes before the mass arrests went down, I was hit in the back of the leg by a billy club, and now have one hell of a black and blue mark to show for it, along with the continuing pain, and probably will for quite some time.

The emotional scars, though, are the ones that will take longest to heal. I haven't slept well at all since spending 36 hours in holding cells, with little food, no contact with the outside world, one hour of sleep, and constant psychological battering at the hands of our city and county's "finest" men and women in uniform. Instead of "protecting and serving," these people overreacted and disserved the public Thursday night.

I could go on forever here, but I am getting very tired of going over all this stuff. You have valid points regarding vandalism and disorderly conduct - just rememeber that many of us remained peaceful and civil throughout the entire march.

I'm concerned about my future safety and civil liberties - you should be as well.

Todd

add your comments


.
by Evan N Monday, Mar. 24, 2003 at 1:52 PM

at the anti war committee meeting on sunday there was a very good discussion of tactics, alot of people attended including a few people from pog. we basically all agreed that there needs to be parameters to the marc, not necessarily a route persay because then police could pick an oppertune time to arrest us, but at least an idea such as "the marc will begin at hte federal building, go around within the limits of downtown for 2 hours, then return there 2 hours later" just for logistical reasons. like a big reason that people turned back going towards bloomfield is beause that is where their cars and bus stops were. Randomness is a good thing but too much just creates chaos within the march. We also discusses the newspaper boxes, which i totalyl disagree with because however it is a legitimate tactic to block streets there is a place and a time for that, like at large scale police riots such as seattle 99 and shit, but here and pittsburgh it is just acting childish and DISCOURAGING people from joining the anti war movement, and that is what we need. alot of people dont want to be at a march where there is property distruction, so if you actually care about attracting a large crowd because they wwill feel comfortable dont break shit, it just makes us look like idiots nomatter how much sense it makes we all know the media controls what lots of peopl think and they will bend the slightest dislocation of a newspaper box to the most far out propery destruction ever. also retaliating to the guy on the bridge was just wrong. however deserved it might have been it was just detrimental to our message and viewed as hypocritical by the media.

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To Todd.
by Dave Z Monday, Mar. 24, 2003 at 2:12 PM

"This is directed to Dave Z and the others of his ilk: "

So, now, I am not just a "heckler" but I am in a group that is defiend by "ilk" ?? Typical....someone disagrees so call them names....nice theory of peace.

"First, I am NOT in favor of violence of any sort - by militarys, by terrorists, by police, or by protestors. I would say there were maybe 10 protestors, at most, who did any kind of damage to property or vehicles - some retaliated against drivers who gave the impression they were going to run over the protestors. "

I feel the same way...so.....???? I am ALSO not naive enough to think that somehow some day everyone in the world is willing to drop their guns and missiles and share and share alike and live in harmony, like some drug induced val halla.....There will ALWAYS Be people out there looking to TAKE from you and I what they can......and the only way to prevent that is with violence sometimes. If I come into your house at night to rob you, are you going to simply hand over your ATM card and PIN, your stereo equipment and the keys to your car if I ask nicely?? ALthough simplistic, this example is EXACTKY what we are dealing with.....You are worried about our GOVERNMENT taking our "rights", meanwhile other governments/peoples are plotting to take your LIFE?!!? Excuse me, but if I have to give up a right or two so I can keep breathing, I will......All the "rights" and "free speach" in the world don't mean squat if you be dead.

"Second, I am very sick, sick, sick and tired, tired, tired of hearing this "love it or leave it" crap from you overzealous, patriotic, jingoistic people."

Then leave. This country is FOUNDED on patriotic folks who have a common love for our country. It has been defended over and over in the past by "overzealous" folks like us, and is most likely to be done again....... Like it or not, there are PLENTY of us who find a LOT to love about this country and we take it as an insult when "you types" slam everything and anything about our government , leaders, laws, etc simply because it fits your agenda that day....I am sick of THAT. Is AMerica perfect?? Hell no. Do I think some things are seriously screwed up? Hell yeah. But that doesnt mean that I stab my country in the back when she needs me the most.

" I happen to love it, that's the reason myself and so many others are trying to CHANGE it. I think I have the right to ask YOU people to leave it; you who would give up your personal liberties and freedoms so quickly all in the name of "homeland security." "

There is a time and a place for disagreement. Waiting until our men and womean are knee deep in it is NOT the time to decide to make a stand and criticize your government....If you truly loved your country you would find a way to help....have a silent march where you pick up litter or better yet, colelct food for the local needy. You wanna make a difference? I suggest start there.

"You're the same people who rail against Democrats when they want to limit gun ownership or defend abortion - you say they are "trying to take away your freedoms" when they go after something you care about. "

What in God's name are you talking about?? You dont even know me, yet you lump me in with "the same people"....My opinions on abortion and gun control have no bearing on what is appropriate behaviour for people who live in a society that is fighting for the rights of others.....you are so caught up in the details, you ignore the bigger picture. Gun control on our streets has nothing to do with dealing with a man who was building up an arsenal to use against anyone who didnt believe what he believed...you wanna talk about rights?? How about THAT one.

"Well, please tell me what the difference is between that and what is going on now? How can you be so blind and march in lockstep when so many personal freedoms are being taken away by this administration? "

Again, no idea what are rambling about here......what personal rights do you feel you are losing?? Our country was founded on preserving the rights of others.....but at times, yes, rights of a few must be sacrificed so that the rights of many can be saved......You think you have the right to block streets and stop MY daily life becasue you disagree with what I agree with?? WRONG! You have the right, just as I do, to speak your voice and hope I listen.....I dont have the right to stop YOUR daily activity to force my opinions in YOUR face, nor do you...that isnt ANYONE's right.

"War is NEVER the answer. The industrial world has worked hard to keep peace over the past 50 years - Europe has seen enough wars, that's why those countries are so against this action. "

Question : Where would you be if THAT was the theory that we held back around WW1 and WW2?? Most likely you'd be walking around in a kimono eating rice....Japan wasTHIS close to our doorstep...and war wasnt the answer?? Your grandfather or greatgrandfather is liekly rolling in his grave to think that his grandson would sit back and let another country steal his freedoms. And Sadaam and Bin Laden and every one like them are poised to try just that. The only diff is we chose to fight him on HIS ground versus in our backyard...for THAT, you should be happy......The streets you so flippantly consider "yours"would be like those of Bagdad right now.... Look, NO ONE likes war...except maybe Sadaam and Bin Laden....UNFORTUNATELY, sometimes war is necessary to preserve the greater peace......You think the folks that carried out 911 are peace loving individuals?? They are cold blooded killers...and the only way to fight the sword is WITH a sword.

"Today Iraq - who next? Do we just go into any country whose regimes or leaderships we disagree with? "

It has nothing to do with "disagreeing"......we have disagreed with otehr leaders in the past and have stayed away...it is a calculation of the risk that faces us. And Sadaam, after 12 years of watching him laugh in the face of worldwide scrutiny, became a much greater risk to us.

"I was attacked by the police on Thursday night, and arrested for listening and adhering to their demands. When they wanted me off the street and on the sidewalk, I got on the sidewalk. When they asked us to disperse, I began to disperse - however, a policeman PULLED ME BACK, threw me against the wall, and arrested me. Now, how American is that? "

Bullshit and more bullshit, excuse the french......Had the group been behaving to begin with it is likely that none of this would have happened.....ok, lets assume for a second that you were behaving the way that would be considered acceptable by by societal and legal definitions...You put yourself into a situation where there was increased risk.....judging by the comments made here by other "rallyers", there were PLANS to be boisterous and unruly.....maybe YOU didn't but the group you were with did......Is it fair? No. BUt blame your co-marhcers who DID get out of line and put you in that spot.

The cops are out there watching their backs as well...act like you pose a threat, and you get treated as such, whether you think you are or not. The cops have families at home too, and they would rather risk bruising your pride or your arm than to not make it home to their 3 year old that night...so PLEASE dont whine to me about how "brutalized" you were.....Check the TV once in a while...see what is happening in Asia and elsewehre to protesters.....firehoses, tear gas, billyclubs...and they all get a way with it. So dont whine about being pushed up against a wall.

I disgaree with you, yet I have no billyclub marks on my legs and I was not arrested. And yet you still know I disagree with you. Get my drift?

"Where is the justice there? Mind you, I had not initiated any violence or vandalism - in fact, just a few minutes before the mass arrests went down, I was hit in the back of the leg by a billy club, and now have one hell of a black and blue mark to show for it, along with the continuing pain, and probably will for quite some time. "

Like I said...no whining please....you put yourself in a situation where the odds were that SOMEONE would spark a bad situation, and someone did...blame the folks you were hanging with, not the cops.

"The emotional scars, though, are the ones that will take longest to heal. I haven't slept well at all since spending 36 hours in holding cells, with little food, no contact with the outside world, one hour of sleep, and constant psychological battering at the hands of our city and county's "finest" men and women in uniform. "

POOR BABY! First time away from home? EMOTIONAL SCARS??? Too bad you didnt grow up in a country where they SHOOT people who have a differing opinion....oh wait, that would be Iraq......Look, people GENERALLY (not always) get arrested because they do something to warrant it, on purpose or inadvertently. I have a brotherinlaw who has been arrested and in jail several times. I have never been. I am 10 years older than he......Are the cops "meaner" to him than to me?? No...I just dont put myself in situations where I warrant being arrested by police.

"Instead of "protecting and serving," these people overreacted and disserved the public Thursday night. "

These same people you slam are the ones who keep you and your pals safe when the REAL bad guys are around, so think twice before you slam them too bad.

Had those frat boys had guns, these cops you diss would have shot them before they could shoot you, rest assured with that, regardless of how you felt about or acted toward them.

Its EASY to cut down on the folks who protect you -- cops and soldiers alike -- because they HAVE to protect you.....its their job....and obviously a thankless one.

"I could go on forever here, but I am getting very tired of going over all this stuff. You have valid points regarding vandalism and disorderly conduct - just rememeber that many of us remained peaceful and civil throughout the entire march. "

AND I CLEARLY stated that several times.....a few made it look very bad for you all....

"I'm concerned about my future safety and civil liberties - you should be as well. "

To repeat: Compare your current civil liberties to just about any otehr country in the word, take an HONEST look in the mirror and then consider that people immigrate TO THE US from other countries because of how badly it sucks elsewhere.

You need to thank your lucky stars that it sucks here only to the degree that you think it does...you dont know what terror or being scared or living life looking over your shoulder is......and all because of the very people you slam......

I find it appaling that anyonewho posts here to teh contrary of the protesters is automatically pigeonholed into the "overly zealous patrotics".......Having some pride in your country and some pride on being an American and realizing that we cant ALL get EVERYTHING we think we sdhould be entitled to ALL THE TIME is part of being an American.....and so is realizing that we have it better than 90% of the countries out there.

But of course, you dont want to hear that, so you'll either ignore this or post again with some "fight the establishement" rhetoric.

Grow up. Take off the rose colored glasses and realize that the world is NOT EVER going to be what you idealistically wish it to be.

Human nature has seen to this in the past and will continue to do so.

War is an abomination to mankind...agreed...........but so is believing that it is never a necessity.

DZ

add your comments


discussion of tactics
by nose Monday, Mar. 24, 2003 at 2:27 PM

I think the heading of this thread is dicussion of tactics.
I don't see why its unethical to delete everything that isn't a discussion of tactics.

Peope who want to argue general ideas can start their own threads or sites.

add your comments


To Zack
by Theo Monday, Mar. 24, 2003 at 2:55 PM
TheoK444@aol.com

Zack, i actually agree with a lot of what you say, you make some good points. A masked demonstrator shouting into somebody's car probably isn't going to be effective at getting their message across. However, as far as blocking traffic and making a mess of downtown, it seems that it was the only way to even get the media to cover the event. All i see on the news is war coverage, interviews with vets about how we should support our troops, pictures of parks full of yellow ribbons, they even did a 3 minute story on a 30 person demonstration in support of the war outside of the mall. This movement is being ignored. I generally strongly disagree with any kind of disruptive tactics, but at this point, it looks like that is the only way to get on the news and show the country that there are people who oppose this war. I still disagree with any sort of vandalism, violence, even shouting or swearing at the police. It is unecessary and only makes us look like the thugs they are convinced we all are. I guess i am just so frustrated with the constant barrage of 'support our troops' brand of patriotism that i'm willing to cause trouble to get a message across. I just hope that people are listening.

add your comments


Re: Love it or leave it...
by Sam Monday, Mar. 24, 2003 at 3:03 PM

<<Saying "F*ck Starbucks" and throwing around paper machines or beating up on a commuters ride is NOT covered in the "respecful exchange of opinions" theory.>>

I agree. People who do such things do so knowing full well that they risk arrest. I've never tried to say their behavior is constitutionally protected. It isn't.

I find it very interesting, though, that you, the media, and your fellow trolls focus on two incidents that could be vaguely construed as vandalism and disregard the rest of the march.

You also disregard the context in which these things happened. No one attacked the motorist's car until *after* he tried to run somebody over. If the protestor(s) who attacked his car should've been arrested, then so should he.

And one guy threw a newspaper machine. The machine wasn't even damaged, and protestors put the machine back in place and chastised him for his conduct. (I don't think they should have, but that's a different story.)

add your comments


I'm not the one who forgot
by Sam Monday, Mar. 24, 2003 at 3:07 PM

Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11. Not even the Bush administration has made that claim.

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Let's not be naive
by Charles McClure Monday, Mar. 24, 2003 at 3:20 PM

First of all I support this war, but for different reasons that most people speak for. I hear people mumbling poor reasons such as "it is to expand freedom" or "we do it to defend ourselves from the weapons of mass destruction". Doesn't starting a war goes against these reasons? What freedom can they get having to hide in caves? Aren't we giving Saddam a reason to use this weapons against us by starting a war? Let's not be naive, this war is about oil. And it is about sustaining are life style by getting more cheap oil from this little shitty countries. I heard a guy on the news saying it's not about oil because we don't get our oil from Iraq... but that exactly why. We need a weak democracy in Iraq to let us reap the profits of their good oil. But still as hard as this sounds, it is necessary if we want to keep on going with our great lusty lifestyle of absurd consumism and obscene demonstrations of civility. God bless America.

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have no idea?
by silverfox Monday, Mar. 24, 2003 at 3:51 PM

[What] will be interested to know that his response to red predator has been given to the FBI

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Recording tactics
by David Tuesday, Mar. 25, 2003 at 7:08 PM

This is for Colin and anyone else who's had a camera or recorder stripped by the police, along with the tape.

Is anyone aware of systems to defeat this? Like (idea:) a wireless link between the mike and the tape, so that there is a team of 2 people (one person carries each), and if one gets the mike/camera stripped then the other can leave the scene or otherwise preserve the tape?

OK, so I'm an antiwar geek & trying to contribute what I can... if this doesn't exist then maybe it needs to?

The loss of a camera/MD sucks but if you've still got the tape somewhere with the cop's voice who took it from you, you might have a better chance of getting it back, too...

Maybe something could be rigged with pirate-radio type low power FM broadcasting mike and then a separate boombox/radio tuned to that channel and recording on a tape.

add your comments


we do what we can
by Danielle Ratti Wednesday, Mar. 26, 2003 at 2:17 PM
412 860 4481 223 reston rd imperial pa 15126

I think that we piised off the streets of pittsburgh just a start of what people should do to this hippacritical country of course i am pro america but when can we draw a line to being unrealistic and greedy you dont fight violence with violence the only thing this country is doing is proving the middle easts eye for an eye theory correct Thankyou Danielle AGE: 15 (i thought u might like to know)

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we do what we can
by Danielle Ratti Wednesday, Mar. 26, 2003 at 2:18 PM
412 860 4481 223 reston rd imperial pa 15126

I think that we piised off the streets of pittsburgh just a start of what people should do to this hippacritical country of course i am pro america but when can we draw a line to being unrealistic and greedy you dont fight violence with violence the only thing this country is doing is proving the middle easts eye for an eye theory correct Thankyou Danielle AGE: 15 (i thought u might like to know)

add your comments


JUST ANSWER ONE QUESTION ...
by S. Ansabelt Wednesday, Mar. 26, 2003 at 2:37 PM
sodamninsane@killer.com

Here is the fundamental problem with the current peace movement in America. Not that it is unpatriotic ... but that it is just ill-informed and ignorant.

http://archives.warroom.com/peace-protester.mp3

Can Anyone Answer the Question?

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Warroom
by Jwg Wednesday, Mar. 26, 2003 at 4:29 PM

there nothing that can be learned or solved by answering anything asked by the drones at the warroom.

next?

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things to know
by lawstudent Wednesday, Mar. 26, 2003 at 5:27 PM

to dickey: the writ of habeas corpus is moot under martial law. so is the bill of rights. believe it or not, we have been under martial law since the end of the civil war. this makes civil disobediance a much more serious charge.

add your comments


photos... if you have....
by laura maloney Wednesday, Mar. 26, 2003 at 5:31 PM
laurajanemaloney@hotmail.com

hello all

if anyone has any photos of me being taken to the bus with my nose bleeding... please please please let me know. I know that there were people around and I was hoping that some how we could get in contact with them... if you are one of them or know anyone let me know.

Thanks so much.
BIKE AND DESTROY

Laura Maloney

ps: the shadow lounge may be doing some sort of benefit night for all of us, donating money to the TMcenter... I have my paintings on exhibit there now... so this may be a good way for us to help out the TMcenter.


* The "I know Laura Maloney" Project is coming soon. *

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One question
by Theo Wednesday, Mar. 26, 2003 at 10:35 PM
TheoK444@aol.com

Supporting the eventual removal of Sadaam and opposing the current military 'solution' are not mutually exclusive.

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One question
by Theo Wednesday, Mar. 26, 2003 at 10:35 PM
TheoK444@aol.com

Supporting the eventual removal of Sadaam and opposing the current military 'solution' are not mutually exclusive.

add your comments


One question
by Theo Wednesday, Mar. 26, 2003 at 10:36 PM
TheoK444@aol.com

Supporting the eventual removal of Sadaam and opposing the current military 'solution' are not mutually exclusive.

add your comments


Not sure where you go to law school...
by Dickey Thursday, Mar. 27, 2003 at 2:38 PM

...but chances are, it is not an accredited one. if it is, i would consider transferring to somewhere that will actually help you to pass the bar exam. another point; lincoln briefly suspended habeas corpus DURING the civil war, but that suspension was lifted and remains lifted. as for current events, martial law has not been imposed as of yet.

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Anti-war people
by Mike Smith Sunday, Mar. 30, 2003 at 10:08 AM

If you stop traffic, stop people from getting to the places they need to be you should get run over. You have every right to protest the war, to voice your opinion on the war. But you have no right to infringe on the rights of others who do not agree with you or have nothing to do with you. Just saying if you fuck with other people they have the right to fuck with you.

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Anti-war people
by Mike Smith Sunday, Mar. 30, 2003 at 10:08 AM

If you stop traffic, stop people from getting to the places they need to be you should get run over. You have every right to protest the war, to voice your opinion on the war. But you have no right to infringe on the rights of others who do not agree with you or have nothing to do with you. Just saying if you fuck with other people they have the right to fuck with you.

add your comments


Anti-war people
by Mike Smith Sunday, Mar. 30, 2003 at 10:08 AM

If you stop traffic, stop people from getting to the places they need to be you should get run over. You have every right to protest the war, to voice your opinion on the war. But you have no right to infringe on the rights of others who do not agree with you or have nothing to do with you. Just saying if you fuck with other people they have the right to fuck with you.

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Stopping Traffic
by Art Sunday, Mar. 30, 2003 at 11:34 AM

Stopping traffic is, in general, a bad tactic. It will only irritate the public.

I think that this business about traffic on March 20 is really exaggerated, however. The traffic on March 20 kept moving, and the inconvenience was pretty small.

Also, traffic frequently gets stopped for lots of reasons, like motorcades, accidents, etc. I don't think that the traffic on March 20 was worse than any other day.

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3/31/03
by Jo Ann Nelson Monday, Mar. 31, 2003 at 10:50 PM
rockjoann@hotmail.com

3/ 31/03 To Whom It May Concern: My 83-year-old mother, my husband, and I, attended our first ever peace rally in Frick Park, yesterday. When the television news media announced the plans for the rally that morning they made it sound ominous that the group had no permit. Being big fans of the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, free speech and peaceful assembly, we decided to witness a rally for ourselves. Although our personal history should not matter one wit, my father died in a Veteran’s hospital, my mother’s brother died at 18 in Normandy, my cousin, Jim, died at 19 in Vietnam, and my husband served in the Air Force during the Vietnam war era, so militarily speaking we’ve been around the block. The peace rally speakers included a priest, a minister, some young poets, and a high school girl. The crowd at all times, was peaceful, respectful, almost, too courteous by today’s standard. A young man next to us let out a mild four-letter word and immediately turned and apologized to my mother and me. A couple of plain-clothed policemen took pictures of the crowd, while uniform police stood around us, and others sat in police cars. The speakers warned the crowd of police brutality, but asked for our support and help in conducting a 15-minute march. We decided to go along. The group chanted and walked along the sidewalks and street with the police driving along beside us, traffic was stopped to accommodate us. There were some people booing us, however, I was amazed at the support of many who drove by honking and waving or came out of their houses to applaud the march. Some of the policemen started to act edgy by driving radically, too fast, backwards, screeching tires to an abrupt stop. The knowing crowd murmured that it was just intimidation tactics and to keep moving. A block later I saw officers getting into the trunks of their police cars and dawning riot gear of different sorts. A man next to me whispered, “Hear comes the pepper spray.” Minutes later, our crowd was stopped because police cars had veered into us funneling the group into a v-shape. Angry policemen attacked the front of the crowd in a preemptive strike against unarmed, non-aggressive citizens. The smell of pepper spray filled the air. I looked around to the man with his dog in front of me, my mother next to me, and a toddler in a stroller right behind me, and saw great concern but no panic. Some marchers were giving aid to those who were blinded by the spray. My husband and others took pictures. I saw one man thrown to the ground and handcuffed while others were being indiscriminately sprayed on by an out-of-control-two-fisted-madman in a police uniform. The fear, the intolerance, the cowardice of the policemen who acted so brutally or stood by watching while protecting only themselves from harm is something unforgettable. The big signs on the sides of their cars say dial 911. Well, who do we call when police as a group swarm like common thugs to easy prey? We were also disappointed by the news coverage, that evening which claimed “protesters clash with police”. You have to seek the truth here as much as anywhere else in the world. You can’t rely on the media for accurate, impartial reporting. We have no business taking our “act on the road” until we get it right here, first. We must live democracy if we wish to preach it to others. We aren’t what we say we are, we are what we do!

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thank you
by captain nowhere Monday, Dec. 15, 2003 at 11:23 AM
max1387@yahoo.com

thank you, thank you, thank you.
most of these damn tree huggers dont get that by trying to help america end the war in iraq, they're actually doing more harm than good. disrupting daily lives with thier pointless vegan nonsense (dont get me wrong, its fine to be vegan... just not stupid civilly disobediant vegans!) the war on terrorism isnt going to stop because a few people decide to lay down in front of a couple of cars... it just doesnt work that way, why dont you give up your stupid crack-head nonsense, and just realize that america just isnt going to change for a few small voiced oppinions.

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thank you
by captain nowhere Monday, Dec. 15, 2003 at 11:23 AM
max1387@yahoo.com

thank you, thank you, thank you.
most of these damn tree huggers dont get that by trying to help america end the war in iraq, they're actually doing more harm than good. disrupting daily lives with thier pointless vegan nonsense (dont get me wrong, its fine to be vegan... just not stupid civilly disobediant vegans!) the war on terrorism isnt going to stop because a few people decide to lay down in front of a couple of cars... it just doesnt work that way, why dont you give up your stupid crack-head nonsense, and just realize that america just isnt going to change for a few small voiced oppinions.

add your comments


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